www.iFourWinns.com

Hello all,

I'm a first time boat owner, and unfortunately I have a question following my very first (real) outing...
My boat is a 1997 FW Sundowner 225 I bought used a few weeks ago and has a 5.7 Gi and VP drive. It performed flawlessly in pre-purchase trials.

I've actually had it out once before, but with all the rain, the river has been "No Wake" until today. Last weekend I couldn't wait to get out, but could only put around just above idle. The engine ran great, and was nice and smooth.

I was finally able to get out and go fast today, and at first, everything was fine, the engine had power and was really smooth. After around 20 minutes at about 4000 rpm, the engine suddenly lost a few hundred (300-ish) RPM and I noticed a vibration and what sounded like an engine miss. At slow speeds the vibration was slightly noticeable through the helm.

It happened suddenly enough that I thought perhaps a spark plug wire fell off, but a check once I returned to the dock showed that all the plug wires were still on. I started the engine in neutral with the cover off, and it really shakes now. It used to be butter smooth. It doesn't clunk when it shakes, but really vibrates on the rubber mounts.

When I first brought it home, I changed the lower unit oil and engine oil and filter. I'm a CNC service tech by trade, and have some mechanical/troubleshooting skills, but boat ownership and engine diagnosis is not my strong suit, for sure. It had about a half tank of fuel that was probably about two years old. I fully topped it off and added a double charge of marine Sta-Bil two weeks ago.

Tomorrow I plan to:
Pull the plugs and see if there is anything obvious, although I'm not an expert plug reader...
Remove the distributor cap and check the cap and rotor
Check the advance springs inside the distributor
Compression check as long as the plugs are out.

Does anybody have any other ideas/experience?

Hopefully this is just a fluke and not some sort of omen...
Thanks in advance!!

Eric

No advance springs it's an electronic distributor. Check the resistance of each plug wire. Is this engine running a carb, or EFI?
The comp test can reveal if you have a stuck valve which could cause rough running. Remember to warm the engine up first and disable the ignition.Do the test with the throttle wide open. Look for water in the cyls when you remove the plugs (rusty electrodes) as also note if water shoots out of a plug hole.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Also, was there any indication of overheating?

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Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

I think a 1997 engine is a 5.7 Gi is TBi. A compression test is needed but it will indicate if it's a problem with certain cylinders, or something else..

Thanks for your replies everyone,

There were no signs of overheating, the engine was at 160-180ish the whole time.
It is TBI, yes.

With all plugs out and the coil connectors unhooked to disable the ignition, I spun the engine over a few rotations to check for any water spraying out. None. That's good.

I noticed that plug 3 was really loose in the head, basically finger tight. All the rest took a little bit of torque to get out, not this one. The electrode insulator of plug 3 was broken or worn down too. I understand detonation can cause this to happen. It also has a slightly more blue-ish tint to the outer body of the plug, just outside of the threads. Like it got hot. This can't be good.

Compression check:
1- 170
2- 170
3- 0
4- 170
5- 150
6- 160
7- 170
8- 170

Uh-oh...

For cyl 3, the needle didn't even flicker up. I mean Zeeee-roooo compression. I checked it again after checking all the rest just to be sure I didn't screw something up with that cylinder.

I'll do a leak-down test when I get it home to see where the compression is going, but maybe tomorrow. I need a beer first. I just picked up my trailer and I'm heading back to the marina shortly to go pull it out and bring it home.

The engine still runs decent, but vi-bratey, no smoke or weird noise or anything.
It's just a V-7 now.

I heard changing a boats name is bad luck. The previous owner had Gawdy letters all over the side of the boat using a play on his last name. I took them off. I didn't think it counted as CHANGING the name. Maybe there is something to it! Ha!!

This is NOT how I wanted to start my very first boating season...

Don't feel too bad...
We bought our H180 6 yrs ago. I did not have the opportunity to water-test the boat as it was at a consignment lot. But the outboard ran perfect on the muffs.

3 days later at my house and the motor barely runs on the muffs. A few minor tune-up items and we head to the water to test some more. Ended up stranded on the lake. 2nd test run a week later and same scenario...stranded.

Final fix was replacing all 4 of the plastic-bodied carbs (Johnson V4) which had hairline cracks in them causing the motor to run lean. $800 added to the purchase price just to get us on the water and have an uneventful trip! Lessons learned I guess.

Basically, you're not alone...some of us have been there, done that, and understand completely!

PS - If anybody knows of a set of these-type carbs sitting somewhere, I'd like a spare set. Just in case!

_________________
1999 180 Horizon OB Fisherman Pkg
2013 Grand Cherokee 4x4 w/ 5.7 Hemi
San Antonio, TX

Could be a stuck valve, broken valve spring or broken compression ring.
This winter I took apart my old 4.3 because I had salt water in a cyl. Started out with a reluctance to start and very rough running. Pickled the engine after blowing out the water. Removing the cyl heads revealed 2 blown head gaskets 2 stuck valves ( but still gave close to normal comp test results because they loosen enough to seat during the comp test). The old heads had cracks in the exhsust valve ports in the center cyl on both sides. Collected all the parts for the re build....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I had zero compression in one cylinder of mine last year, the nut had come of the inlet rocker... might not be too complicated. (fingers crossed!)

If the nut came off of the stud for the rocker arm I'd expect it to be making a racket, but this is on the old style pre-vortec engines, the newer ones use a different style of valve train I've never looked at before. In order for there to be zero compression, you'd have to have a valve not seating at all, broken valve spring (so the valve will not close) or a hole in the piston, broken ring, etc. The leak down test will help isolate the problem to a valve or piston/ring but pulling the head, is the only way to know for sure.....

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=4. ... emoval.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=4. ... emoval.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=4. ... +block.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=4. ... head+2.JPG

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

i may have missed mention of it....but have you changed out the fuel filter/water separator? sounds like a fuel issue to me....maybe the filter or clogged injector

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http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o71 ... wqm355.jpg


08' H210SS
VP 5.7Gi

Fair enough Lou, didn't realise the 1997 was pre-vortec.
Just read the post and sounded similar to the issues i had with my 4.3Gi TBI engine last year, the misfire, vibration and lack of power/no compression on one cylinder.

There were a lot of changes over the years and the Vortec cyl heads seemed to show up around '96. The non adjustible valve train maybe somewhat later. In this case the only thing that will tell the full story is taking it apart. Hardest part is getting the intake manifold off. The OE style intake gaskets on mine were like concrete. I used a big screwdriver wrapped in electrical tape to pry it loose . The heads and head gaskets were a lot easier by comparison.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

So I was complaining at work a bit about my unfortunate season-opener.
One of my colleagues overheard me and mentioned that he has an old friend who is a long-time boat mechanic.

He called the guy up and he said:
Get a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil and pour about 2/3 of it into the crankcase and the other third into a spray bottle. With the engine running, spritz the carb/TB, and about half the time, it will un-stick a stuck valve. I figured I had nuthin' to lose, so I gave it a try.

Wouldn't you know it!!??
The engine smoothed right out after a minute or so!!
I never would have believed it if I didn't see it for myself.

Now, I haven't checked the compression on that cylinder yet, so I can't say for sure it's cured, but it is running really smooth again!!
And perhaps this is just a warning sign of some deeper trouble, but for now, I'm happy.

Hopefully tomorrow I can check compressions again and let you all know.

By the way, does anyone know what causes a "Stuck Valve" anyhow?

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate everyone's help and advice.
Thank you all so much.

Valves can stick due to carbon build up (rich fuel mix or leaky valve seals) or from a slightly leaky riser gasket that can let small amounts of water in a cyl via an open exhsust valve after shutting the engine off. Are the risers original and do you see any rust stains from the joint on the outside? If so it could leak water on the inside.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I would agree. On a marine engine the most likely cause is water from the exhaust manifolds/risers.

On a 1997 boat, even in all fresh water use, it is probably time to change them. You can get the whole set of risers and manifolds for about $600, so it's not the end of the world. But at the very least, remove the risers (drain the water out first) so you can see what condition they are in.

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"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings