www.iFourWinns.com

So I was on the lake Saturday with my family (it was finally warm enough and not raining) and we were having a great day wakeboarding. After about two hours of wakeboarding, we decided we would pull into a cove to swim and relax. After floating for about an hour, we decided to go tubing. I hooked the tube up, started the engnie, and idled out of the cove. At this point, everything was still fine. However, when I turned the corner and went to give her some gas, the engine sputtered and died. I tried to refire it multiple times, but I could tell from the sound of the engine it wasn't getting any fuel. I eventually threw the anchor again and took off the flame arrestor and had my brother look down the carb to see if any fuel was being injected as I pumped the throttle (with the key on of course). He wasn't seeing anything. I then decided to take the fuel line off of the carb coming from the pump. Again, no fuel. At that point I gave in and flagged down another boat for a tow.

Here is where it gets interesting. About half way back to the ramp, I decided to give it another try. I gave the throttle a couple pumps, turned the key, and sure enough it started. I had this same scenario happen towards the end of last year, but the only way I was able to get it to restart was to dump fuel down the carb the next morning. I changed the fuel filter during winterization, so I am pretty sure that is not the problem. Last year I thought it might be vapor lock as it was a very hot day and we had run her very hard for an extended period of time before stopping in the cove, but I was under the impression that engines with electric fuel pumps don't vapor lock and it was only about 85 out Saturday.

Any ideas? Oh, my engine is a 2001 4.3L GL. I haven't dug into it yet, so I thought I'd ask for any thoughts before I start spending money on a new parts.

Thanks!!!

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

You sure it is an electric fuel pump? Ours does that on rare occasions and then I just have to pump the throttle a couple of times and we are on our way. Can't explain why but some times before the engine will start again we have to pump the throttle.

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Troy
2008 Centurion Avalanche
1994 Four Winns Horizon 180 SE 5.0L OMC Cobra (Sold)
2002 Ford F150 Harley Davidson Edition (http://www.nhtoc.com) 378 hp & 465 tq at rear wheels
2008 Honda Accord EX-L w/Nav

I'm not sure it is a fuel pump issue, but I definitely tried to pump it more than a few times and had no luck. I was just doing some searching on the internet and I found someone with a '96 with similar symptoms as I am having. He was also thinking pump, but it turned out to be the "1 way sifone valve". Not sure what this is or if my 2001 has one, but his symptoms were identical to mine.

"96 HorizonRX 4.3L GL Volvo Penta Fuel Problem
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Ok got a strange problem I need some help with.
My 1996 Horizon RX with a 4.3GL Volvo Penta is acting up and I suspect a fuel problem in the making.

Boat starts up fine when we put it in the water and we can run for hours with no problems at all.The problem happens after we have been running for awhile and shut down and float around for an hour or so.
Engine starts right up with no problem until I give it full throttle and boat gets up on plane then just dies.(runs out of gas) Takes forever to get restarted but when it does you can run full bore with no problems until the next time you stop and float around.

Im thinking the fuel pump relay may not be working all the time.So now I am ruling out a bad electric fuel pump since the boat runs fine when it is running.

Any thoughts of other problems causing this

Thanks K"

"Re: 96 HorizonRX 4.3L GL Volvo Penta Fuel Problem
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Well turned out to be a bad 1 way sifon valve at the fuel tank."

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

I'd check your anti-siphon valve. It's in the fuel fitting on your tank where the fuel line attaches to. I've had numerous problems with mine on both engines. My symptoms were exactly the same as yours. Cleaning them regularly was helping for a while but the first time it happened I replaced the fuel pump and it acted up again early the next season. That's when I found a ring of varnish around the ball inside the valve. This spring it was happening on the other engine and I replaced the valve, which didn't fix the problem, yet the symptoms were the same - it turned out to be the fuel pump, which probably wore out due to both age and the extra work required to pump through the varnished check valve.

You may have noticed in your web search that there are both aluminum and brass check valve assemblies. I had an one aluminum and two brass valves (for two engines plus a generator), which is hint that they might have caused trouble for the previous owner as well. The aluminum one was the repeat offender for fouling up, and when I thought about it, the aluminum valve was on the other engine when I bought the boat, and when I took all three of them off for cleaning, I put the aluminum one on the other engine, and the problem moved to that engine. Brass seems to work best from my experience along with those I read about while researching the problem, so now all three of mine are brass.

If yours is brass, then you should be able to just clean it. If not, I would replace it with brass. Either way, your fuel pump could be weak as well. Hope this helps...

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USCG 50 Ton Master Inland/OUPV Endorsement+Towing

1998 278 Vista - Twin 4.3 GLs, Kohler 4KW Gen, AC/Heat.
1999 Yamaha Waverunner SUV
2003 Yamaha Waverunner SUV w/MR-1 HO conversion

I'll have to check the anti-siphon valve tonight as I'd imagine it is as old as the boat and is a less expensive fix than the fuel pump. Is it easy to visually see any oxidation/corrosion on the ball?

I'm also thinking vapor lock can't be ruled out from some of the information I've read on the iboats forum. There are only two small vent openings for the engine compartment and it can get rather warm in there. I'm going to check to see how much air the blower is actually moving when it's on. Maybe I need to invest in a larger blower or run it longer after running hardn for an extended period and then anchoring.

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

If it's a piece of debris from the tank it could be easy to see. If it's varnish build up, you might be able to smell it easier than you can see it. On mine I could smell varnish but I didn't see anything until I moved the ball with a small screw driver. Then a small sliver of hardened varnish broke away and it was obvious what the issue was. I cleaned it out with carb cleaner and it worked for a year until it varnished up again.

I would agree with you that vapor lock can't be ruled out, but I think you'll find that it's the valve and/or pump. Good luck and let us know what you find out!

Joe

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USCG 50 Ton Master Inland/OUPV Endorsement+Towing

1998 278 Vista - Twin 4.3 GLs, Kohler 4KW Gen, AC/Heat.
1999 Yamaha Waverunner SUV
2003 Yamaha Waverunner SUV w/MR-1 HO conversion

Well, I took the fuel system apart last night and confirmed that the anti-siphon valve is the aluminum version. However, it looked clean and worked smoothly when I used a small screw driver to move the ball around. I also verified that the pump does run and pump fuel when I bypass the relay that sits just in front of the pump. Can anyone tell me what controls this relay?

I also rerouted the blower vent as it basically just made a "U" sucking air from the bottom of the bilge, up through the blower, and then back down to the bilge. I now have it blowing out of one of the vents at the rear of the engine compartment. Does anyone know if this is how it was supposed to be?

Unfortunately, the only way to tell if I still have the problem is to go out and run it hard and then stop and lounge around for awhile before trying to go out again. I guess I'll just have to make sure I shut her down close to the ramp next time in case the problem continues. I also put a few more tools on board so I can further diagnose the problem if it comes back.

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

From the way I understood the fuel pump relay power, the relay is only energized when the engine is starting or the alternator is generating current. If the engine were not running, for safety reasons, the pump would not run, so when you turn the key on, the pump will not run as it does in an automotive application.

Even though your pump works and pumps gas cold, I still suspect it is the culprit. Mine ran and it always pumped cold until I shut it off while anchoring for a while. The last time I had the issue, the engine died idling while I was pulling the anchor. I was going to limp back on one engine and tried it one more time and it started working enough to get back to the marina, but I could tell it was starving for gas at times. After I got home I jumped the relay and the pump ran but there was no suction.

Your pump, if you end up replacing it will be around $150 with shipping if you order online. Get the number off of your pump so you can cross-reference it to the new one. It's a 7-digit number beginning with 385nnnn. The Sierra part number for mine is 18-7326. It should be the same pump for yours but of course you'll want to double-check it.

Joe

_________________
USCG 50 Ton Master Inland/OUPV Endorsement+Towing

1998 278 Vista - Twin 4.3 GLs, Kohler 4KW Gen, AC/Heat.
1999 Yamaha Waverunner SUV
2003 Yamaha Waverunner SUV w/MR-1 HO conversion

It looks like we are supposed to have a nice weekend in the upper 80s (finally!!!), so hopefully I can get out and try to reproduce the problem. This time I will be sure to shut her down close to the ramp though. If it happens again and I can rule out vapor lock, I may just go ahead and get a new pump and anti-siphon valve.

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

I've been having the same problem with my 1994 Freedom with a carb'ed 4.3. Last year I disassembled the anti-siphon valve on top of the fuel tank and found a bit of rubber gasket material lodged in the ball. After cleaning it out, I didn't have any further problems, but it's doing the same thing this year.

I guess I'll tear apart the valve again and see what it's doing. I do have 'cure' that gets me home off the lake - when it dies after sitting for a bit, I pull the water/oil separator, top it off with fuel from a separate bottle I keep in the boat just for this use, and it will always start and run after this. The separator isn't empty; it only takes a splash to top it off.

I think the anti siphon valve is letting gas drain back in the tank after sitting and while the boat will start and run for a few minutes, I believe it is just running off fuel in the top of the separator. When it can no longer feed of the separator fuel, it dies. The thing I don't get is why the fuel pump doesn't repressurize/refill the fuel line in the 30 seconds or so that it does run after sitting.

I'm getting a littlle confused about this anti-syphon valve. It's been mentioned to be in the fuel line ( I presumed that meant it was in the outlet to the pump/ filter?), but also to be on top of the fuel tank. I can't see how it can be both, unless there's a dip tube into the tank that goes to the bottom of the tank that fuel is taken out of.

Where exactly is it? If it's on the tank outlet at the bottom, what's to stop 50 gallons of fuel from leaking out when you remove it? Is there a ball valve there?

Graham

When this happened to me last year, I simply poured some gas down the carb to get it restarted. Once it started, it ran fine again until this last incident. This last time, I didn't have any extra fuel available, but either the bouncing around while being towed broke something loose or the moving air cooled down the engine compartment enough to get her started again. I ran back to the ramp at nearly WOT with no hessitations.

The anti-syphon valve on my tank is mounted on top of the fuel tank on a 90 degree fitting just before the rubber hose that takes the fuel to the pump. I would assume that there is a tube that goes to the bottom of the tank below this 90 degree fitting.

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2001 Four Winns Horizon 180LE, VP 4.3GL/SX
2006 Ford F-150 Extended Cab 4x4, 5.4L

Graham,

It should be the fitting that your rubber fuel hose connects to on the top of the tank's draw tube. It looks like a regular barb-type fitting but the hex body that you would wrench to loosen/tighten is a little longer. That is where the ball and spring are. Check this site out for a picture of the valve:

http://www.marinepartssource.com/detail ... r=EVMAS160

This one pictured is aluminum but the brass ones look the same otherwise. There are variations of these that look like pipe nipples and unions (to attach regular barbs or other fittings to), but these with the barb combined are farily common.

Joe

_________________
USCG 50 Ton Master Inland/OUPV Endorsement+Towing

1998 278 Vista - Twin 4.3 GLs, Kohler 4KW Gen, AC/Heat.
1999 Yamaha Waverunner SUV
2003 Yamaha Waverunner SUV w/MR-1 HO conversion

re the antisyphon valve being on to of the tank; That makes sense to me now, thanks.

I can't see my tank, it's ahead of the engine compartment forward bulkhead and the hose to the pump comes out of that bulkhead low down. I just assumed that the tank outlet was at that height.

Graham

You're welcome, Graham.

On mine I can see and access the fittings from the engine compartment because my bulkhead stops just short of the top of the tank on each side of the compartment, which is where the draw tubes are for both engines. Mine also has a round plastic inspection cover in the floor right over the tank above sending unit. If yours has that it might help you if you ever needed to access the top of your tank.

Joe

_________________
USCG 50 Ton Master Inland/OUPV Endorsement+Towing

1998 278 Vista - Twin 4.3 GLs, Kohler 4KW Gen, AC/Heat.
1999 Yamaha Waverunner SUV
2003 Yamaha Waverunner SUV w/MR-1 HO conversion