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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Minnow
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Looking for some knowlege here:

I have a 99 240 Horizon with 5.7l GSi which is throttle body injected. I have seen performance parts (ie ported throttle bodies, injector spacers, etc.) made for GM TBI's and wondered if they would work with marine engines as well. Are VP TBI fuel injectors are the same as GM TBI truck fuel injectors (voltage, spray pattern and volume) and if they are basically interchangeable? I know marine engines are different from car engines, but are the TBI components the same? I have seen patterns for both throttle bodies and the bolt patterns are the same. I do like to tinker, but haven't gone into TBI systems.. just carbs. I dont want to kill my boat (or myself) by tinkering with anything!

Any thoughts or direct knowlege is appreciated. Examples of what I am talking about here:

http://marine-performance-parts.com/cfm ... 35057.aspx

http://marine-performance-parts.com/cfm ... rstud.aspx

http://marine-performance-parts.com/gmt ... ctors.aspx

Thanks,

Dan

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:31 pm 
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230 Mike
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I would caution anyone against thinking boat engines are car engines, despite the fact that people will be along shortly to convince you that they are.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Minnow
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230 Mike wrote:
I would caution anyone against thinking boat engines are car engines, despite the fact that people will be along shortly to convince you that they are.


Mike, I agree with you, and I am well aware that marine and automotive engines are quite different. I am asking specifically about the Tbi system (I guess I should have made that more clear). I also know that people will try to save a buck or two and try automotive parts on boats. Usually a bad idea!

I spoke with customer service at CFM and he told me that they design their products for Chevy truck motors (or hot rods with chevy blocks) and Mercruiser marine engines. He was honest and told me that he did not know if the VP 5.7l Tbi was the same design as a Mercruiser 5.7l with Tbi since they only research Mercruiser. He did say once again their products are compatible with Mercruiser and they would guarantee it for that application.

Now I guess the real question would be "Does the VP 5.7l Tbi have the same injection system as the Mercruiser 5.7l Tbi?" I have a friend with a Mercruiser 5.7l Bravo 3, also with Tbi. Throttle bodies look the same and the bolt patterns appear the same (I have not taken mine off (yet) to measure against his for exact fit or checked his intake dimensions yet).

I am not talking other specific brand of engine design components like cooling pumps, alternators, etc. Just the Tbi system itself, ie, Throttle body and injectors. Any marine mechanics out there that would know that answer?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:20 pm 
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230 Mike
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lubbs220 wrote:
Mike, I agree with you, and I am well aware that marine and automotive engines are quite different. I am asking specifically about the Tbi system (I guess I should have made that more clear). I also know that people will try to save a buck or two and try automotive parts on boats. Usually a bad idea!


Not at all - you were very clear. There's a growing population on this forum who think that whatever's good for a hot rod must be good for a boat. I'm glad you aren't one of those and I apologize for the hijack. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:43 pm 
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I am not sure on this too!! BUT, a member at my club had a little water in his fuel. Because of that, it rusted the carb and other fuel related parts. His boat was built in"96". Cars really don't have this problem "water". So, what I am thinking, that anything fuel related maybe less prone to water in the fuel, being a marine part. Just a thought.


Last edited by Paul I. on Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:26 pm 
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The TBI system on a VP/Merc is part for part the exact same setup as found on street.

A "marine" carb is a automotive carb with the vent tube closed off to the air. Same unit, nothing special about it except for 5 cent piece of pipe added.

The ignorance in the boating world is unbelievable. People got sold on the term "marine rated' when all "marine rated" means is you're getting charged 3x more for the exact same piece because the retailer knows you'll pay it.

Proof in fact?
Volvo Penta Power Steering Pump:
http://www.jmsonline.net/volvo-penta-po ... 888323.htm
$265

Chevy Power steering pump, minus the tank (not needed, reuse old one)
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/ ... 17_0_3508_
$48


Where does the extra $200 come from??? Nowhere. Just price inflation cause it's for a boat.

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1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:15 am 
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Minnow
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ric wrote:
The ignorance in the boating world is unbelievable. People got sold on the term "marine rated' when all "marine rated" means is you're getting charged 3x more for the exact same piece because the retailer knows you'll pay it.


Although there are some "marine" parts that are interchangeable with auto parts, there are still some that are not compatible with a marine environment. A marine engine is built different than an auto engine based upon the demands put on them (ie. no transmission). I would agree with you for most "bolt on" parts, like the power steering pump. Ric, your point is well made.

I'm not sure if 30-50 hp gains by performance parts are worth the money in boats as it takes alot more for a boat to improve performance than a car... but need to have my injectors serviced anyway, so was thinking about it as long as I had it apart...hmmm.

Thanks for the input so far guys. And Mike, no worries about the "hijack"... the advice still fits for those who may browse this based upon the thread title!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:00 am 
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That was hilarious boat inflation! they do stick to us because they consider it a luxury to have a boat


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:26 am 
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I do agree!!! AND it sounds like some of you know a lot more than me on this matter!! But, no one has mentioned "ignition proof". The alternator, starter and other elerticail parts, all need to be ignition proof.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:43 am 
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Paul I. wrote:
I do agree!!! AND it sounds like some of you know a lot more than me on this matter!! But, no one has mentioned "ignition proof". The alternator, starter and other elerticail parts, all need to be ignition proof.


The only parts that have to be USCG ignition protected in the engine compartment are fuses, fuse blocks, circuit breakers, switches, and motors (that includes the alternator), and the distributor (not the wires, cap, or plugs).

Anything can be rated "ignition proof" if it passes the test (turned on and off 50 times in a confined space containing propane). Some people ignition rate stupid stuff like LED lighting used underwater. Since when is your LED lights going to ignite fuel vapors underwater? It's a good selling tactic though, cause people fall for it thinking it's needed. I really hope they're ignition proof, cause if not they wouldn't be WATER PROOF. lol

There is no standard to the term "Marine Rated". The term marine rated just means we took a normal part off the shelf, dubbed it marine rated, and will charge you 3-5x more.

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1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Location: Boat in Annapolis, live in Bethesda, MD
230 Mike wrote:
There's a growing population on this forum who think that whatever's good for a hot rod must be good for a boat.

And it didn't take long for that to occur, sadly.

Yes, there's a lot in common with marine and automotive systems. I, however, don't believe in cheaping out. But then I'm not puttering around in a tiny boat either, grubbing for every nickel. The investment you make in the boat is for it's value and your safety. Half-assing it does a disservice to both.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:42 pm 
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wkearney99 wrote:
230 Mike wrote:
There's a growing population on this forum who think that whatever's good for a hot rod must be good for a boat.

And it didn't take long for that to occur, sadly.

Yes, there's a lot in common with marine and automotive systems. I, however, don't believe in cheaping out. But then I'm not puttering around in a tiny boat either, grubbing for every nickel. The investment you make in the boat is for it's value and your safety. Half-assing it does a disservice to both.


So you'll pay $250 for a power steering pump that's identical to the $48 dollar one, just so you're not cheaping out? That makes no sense to pay $200 more for something that is not any better and 100% identical in construction and material.

Education is key here guys. Ask questions to manufacturers. What makes their product different then others? Is it made out of different metals or coated differently then a standard part? What makes it more expensive then a cheaper non boat product? Educate yourself in what you are paying for.

It's already been very well documented with pictures on the internet that products like sierra oil filters are inferior to even the worst known filter to man, fram. There is no such thing as "marine rated" or "ignition proof" spark plugs or plug wires. An accessory belt is an accessory belt. The small block chevy out of a VP/Merc 5.0/5.7 is just a standard run of the mill automotive 2 bolt main engine with a different cam profile, no other differences except the freeze plugs that cost $10. Oil is oil, unless you have a 3.0, then you need oil with zinc in it, otherwise... run whatever.

When it comes to specific marine parts that do not cross over, you do not have a choice where you buy them from.... but cross over parts are cross over parts. They are not different.

Ripping off boat owners is a time old tradition. It's a well known fact that if you are a boat owner, you have money in your bank account. If you're bringing your boat to a shop, you do not know how to fix it. What better way to tap into that bank account then to tell an uneducated owner that they need special "marine" parts that cost 3-5x more?? It's a no brainer.

It's no different then places like these brake shops that tell woman they need every service done in the world and end up paying $350 for a brake job using $30 worth of parts and 1hr of labor.

It's just like why Volvo Penta stopped selling the high pressure seal repair kit for the famous leaky power steering ram. Why sell a $10 seal with $3 profit that takes 1hr of billable labor to replace, when you can sell a whole power steering rack for $500 MSRP and the shop can profit $200. Then the shop just fixes it anyways since it takes a standard hydraulic seal found anywhere, and sells it as a good "used take off" for $300. They just profited $500 + labor for something just a few years ago that netted them $3 + labor.

Boat parts and boat repair is not about selling you a better product, cause they are not. It's about making money.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Location: Boat in Annapolis, live in Bethesda, MD
What next, moon landing hoax conspiracies?

None of that actually answered the man's questions.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:29 pm 
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wkearney99 wrote:
What next, moon landing hoax conspiracies?

None of that actually answered the man's questions.


I did earlier. The TBI system in a boat is identical to the TBI system on cars. Chevy made slight differences throughout the years (improvements) and a simple visual inspection of the parts will let you know what revision you have. Rule of thumb when it comes to marine engines... first or oldest revision.

Since you really can not get a A/F ratio on a boat (no exhaust pipe to stick the sensor in), the only way to tune it will be old school plug reading. I suppose you could drill and tap a hole in the manifold for a wideband o2 sensor.

The best thing you could do for that engine is a tune up using good iridium plugs gapped correctly, check the coil to verify it's working 100%, and some flow matched injectors. You won't gain any HP, but it will run smoother and snappier.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:30 am 
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Tadpole

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Newbie in this discussion and very excited after become a part of it . I am much interested in this topic but i am a fresh in this field and had no idea about it .Any one guide me about it and provide me some proper information about it .I need your advice about it .

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