www.iFourWinns.com

I've always wanted a Liberator and I'm currently looking at two that are nearby. I'm waiting to get the full scoop on them, they are both roughly the same price. One is a 1991 Four Winns 221 w/OMC 454 King Cobra mag, sounds all stock and looks to have really low hours. The other is a 87 211 with a new 454 that looks to be a mercruiser with what the owner states is low hours. I'm still waiting for more info on each boat but with what I have so far, should I steer clear of either of them, or what questions should I be asking?

Thanks!

Howdy,

I can pretty much say with conviction, get the Mercruiser powered boat over the OMC. The 91 454 King Cobra while having the "Cone-clutch" drive was the interim drive. not the newer Volvo SX. There are ways to put a Volvo SX or DPS type drive on it if that one craps out... (For BIG BUCKS)

On the other hand, the 91 454 Cobra engine used the Spitfire ignition. If ANYTHING goes wrong with the ignition you cannot buy parts for it (Since OMC no longer exists)

The Mercruiser on the other hand is completely supportable and you can get a rather excellent (NEW) SEI drive to replace the Alpha if it breaks for almost HALF of what you could get a rebuilt Cobra for and about 1/3 what a Volvo costs to replace.

I would vote for the older one with the Merc over the newer one with the OMC......assuming both are in "good" shape...


Cheers,


Rick

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Thanks, that's good to know! Sounds like I'll steer clear of the OMC one and look a little harder at the merc one. Too bad because the 91 is absolutely showroom condition. I don't think I've ever seen an all original boat from the 90's that was so clean, the previous owner has had it for the last 7 years. He said it was upgraded to an MSD ignition and everything else is stock, they are looking to move on it too, probably get it under $7500 is that a good deal?

Well,

That's different if it's already had the ignition changed to MSD or other marine ignition.

The only downer would be the "transition" Cobra.

It's possible to put a Volvo Penta drive on it but I do not know what (minor) modifications are required other than that drive has the raw water pump on the back so if you did have to switch to a Volvo you would have to get an engine mounted raw water pump. ALL of that would be a very expensive proposition.


If the drive is in good condition, it would be an ok boat I suppose. The coupler, manifolds and certain other "wear" items are available I think.

If you're considering the 91, you should get a hold of a dealer that would be getting the parts and ensure that they are easily available.


Personally, I wouldn't buy ANY boat that has OMC under the hood and hanging off the back.

Not because they were "BAD"....they were actually pretty good. My King Cobra went over 20 years with little or no problems (except when the dealer didn't bother to put oil in the drive after changing it!!! [twice] )

The main reason is that OMC people (who fix them) are getting pretty scarce. PARTs are getting scarce. The company has been gone for more than 10 years now. BRP is not really supporting the King Cobras all that well. (some engine and drive parts are simply not available at any price)

So with that in mind, I would not pay premium, regualr or even discount price for a boat with an OMC engine/drive in the back. I would almost treat it like a boat with no motor. (that's an exaggeration but you get the idea.)


Good luck,



Rick

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Thanks, I will definately stay away from the OMC. I heard back in regards to the 87, it was not properly winterized two seasons ago and the head was cracked. They replaced it with a mercury crate 454 and they said it was between 330-350hp. It also has a mercruiser outdrive. Did they offer this motor and outdrive on an 87, or did someone swap it in at some point? I'm told everything works, doesn't take on water, and they have all the reciepts for the motor and work done to install it. What other questions should I be asking or looking at on the boat? The interior looks to be original, the carpet could be replaced but it's not too bad. They've only owned the boat for a year which makes me wonder a little bit too. Any other concerns I should be asking about? I'm also eyeballing a Baja Force 200 too which looks to be in better shape but has a 5.7 in it.

Even though the 91 is in great shape....that 90 King Cobra was a very different design from the original dog clutch Cobras...I bet every part is different...I have seen only one and it was on a similar Liberator at a local dealer....the transom housing and drive appear much larger than the dog clutch Cobras...so I don't know for sure if the Cobra to SX conversion would work (pivot housing design could be different)....which would mean you'd have to pull out everything (pull engine...replace inner and outer transom mounts)...way too much work and expense with all the thousands of good boats available.....

As an aside...I saw an SEI ad in Boating magazine...that said their Cobra to Alpha conversion is coming soon...apparently they designed a pivot housing that will allow an Alpha to be mounted on a Cobra transom...I'd love to see how they worked out the differences in shift linkage and trim rams...but if it works...it's a much cheaper alternative to the Volvo SX conversion....

As far as the 87..the first thing I'd check is the deck and transom for rot...that's the most serious problem in an older boat...re-powering is actually easier (and sometimes cheaper if you have to get the wood and 'glass work done by a shop)...I had to do a deck replacement on my 88 Horizon and after that experience (came out great by the way) I'd never buy a boat older than maybe 3-5 years....never want to deal with that again! My next one will probably be a composite boat...most likely outboard powered....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

HEY! cool!!!


That will be a great conversion! I was thinking that they'd be building a Cobra replacement by now though....Maybe doing an adapter will be better...

Yes that Cone clutch Cobra is not only different from the Dog-clutch Cobras but it's also quite different from the later (excellent) SX's too! I have heard that there is a conversion that will allow the VP SX's to be mounted on a Cobra gimbal but it is VERY expensive.



Heads usually don't crack from non-winterization....but the blocks almost always crack.....You usually replace the whole engine then....

If they swapped out the engine, there'd be no problem. The 87 DID come with either the Mercruiser or the OMC 5.7L or 7.5L Cobra. My brother bought my 1987 211 Liberator new .....while he was looking, he drove the small block version and the 460 King Cobra version. He said that he considered the 454 Mercruiser model too but the 460 was a little more HP and he was ALL ABOUT HP!!

This is right after I got it running with the 'new' engine and Bravo III drive. I hadn't put the swimstep back on yet.


I found that I couldn't buy certain parts (like the exhaust manifolds, coupler, and certain drive parts) for the 460 so I removed the 460 + King Cobra a few years ago and replaced it with a 97 Mercruiser 454 Bravo III that I found on Craigslist.

Lou is right about checking the older boat for rot in the floor and transom. Mine didn't have any and was never moored in a slip for more than a few weeks or so.....But I did find a lot of water trapped in the transom when I removed the gimbal. It took me a couple of months to dry it all out so I seal it up.

The only other problem could be that an Alpha is really good for about 300 HP (which is why Mercruiser stopped offering the Alpha + 454 in 88 when the Bravo came out)

There were quite a few boats that had the 454 + 1.36:1 Alphas (211 Libs too)

The Liberator is a very cool boat! I would love to have a 241 or a 261 But you need a tanker truck to feed them (twin engines) I'll probably have mine for quite some time. I've only got about 130 hrs on my engine/drive.


What ever boat you decide on, you should probably pay a reputable marine surveyor to look at it.


Cheers,


Rick

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Thanks for all the info, your boat looks great! It will be a couple weeks before I will have cash in hand to buy something, I'll definately post if I pick up the 87, thanks for all the info.

Ok, I've been debating buying the 91 with the OMC on the premise that I would be swapping out the motor after next year, or running it until I had major problems. Here's my next set of questions...It sounds like a lot of problems with OMC focus around the 460, would those same problems apply to a 91 454? The boat I'm looking at already has a new MSD ignition so I'm assuming I shouldn't have to worry about finding ignition parts? I've read I could have the flywheel modded to accept more common couplers which sounds like it would solve the lack of aftermarket couplers as well. How do the manifolds go bad, is it over time or just from poor winterizing? What do I look for in the manifolds to make sure they are ok? It sounds like another problem is with the gears and the shift cable. Is it extremely difficult to adjust the cable, or are people just not informed to keep an eye on it? I'm not looking to beat on this boat, or do a bunch of holeshot races, but definately want to top it out now and then. Is there anything I could do, other than adjusting the cable, to help prolong the engine and outdrive? I've always wanted a Liberator since I was a kid, this one is very clean and I know the owner so I know there are no problems with it right now. I'm still just thinking at this point and keeping my eyes open, but might be able to snag this one for around $6500, not sure if that's a great deal or not? Here's a shot of the motor

Not much is really known about these drives because they were only made from 90-93...then OMC went into the joint venture with Volvo and all the Cobras after that were really the Volvo SX design...all the parts between the two were the same...so this model even though it uses cone clutch shifting like a Volvo...may be hard to get serviced because not to many mechanics will have been familiar with them and as far as parts...well they were the least common ones so I'd check on a few websites that sell factory OMC parts like dougrussel.com and crowleymarine.com...the plain old dog clutch Cobras are fairly well supported in the aftermarket....the only parts for mine that are hard to find are trim senders (NLA) and the one piece exhaust manifolds (out there but pricey)...all the other parts I've needed I've been able to get...and complete gear cases are available in the aftermaket too...but not for these late model big block/cone clutch/pre-volvo ones....I'd really think twice about it and try to find a Merc powered example...because if you buy it and the drive breaks...or even just doesn't shift right because it needs a certain part...that is unavailable...then you are stuck unless you want to convert the whole thing to a Merc which is what Rick did with his...but you need some real mechanical skill to do that and a place to work...engine hoist...
If you like that style of boat I'd also look to see if you could find a nice Wellcraft Nova with a Merc...I saw one earlier in the summer and it was similar in style to the Liberator and quite a nice boat....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Well that sounds even more discouraging than before, guess I will throw in the towel on that one all together. Those wellcrafts look really nice too, I'll have to keep those in mind as well, thanks!

If you've wanted a Liberator all your life, then don't give in so easily. I Live in Phoenix and went thru the same dilema - what will I do if the drive breaks...don't worry about that - it can be fixed, or replaced...and if it's still in great shape it'll probably last along time. The motor looked real clean, like it's been taken care of. Take it to a reputable boat mechanic and have them check it out...and ask them if they can work on the drive and get parts...if the rest of the boat is perfect, it may be worth it to you.

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1988 Four Winns 261 Liberator Twin 460s

If you buy it...just be prepared for having to eventually repower the boat...if it were me...and the boat had a 350 with a plain dog clutch Cobra...that I would take a chance on because like I said they are pretty well supported in the aftermarket...and my mechanic still works on em...if you have to re-power the boat...you are locked into keeping it (which is fine since you always wanted one) because you never get the money back out of something like that...
Kind of like when I fixed the rotted deck in my 88...I did a lot of it myself but the nasty grinding of fiberglass and gelcoating I paid to have done..now if I sell it I'll not get the money back..doesn't make it worth more than market value...but it's fixed the way I wanted and I'm happy to keep it the way...and as far as the Cobra...if the drive fails...or gets trashed on a rock...if my mechanic can get parts I'd have him rebuild it..if not them maybe I'd consider the Volvo conversion...only if I can get a used drive at the right price....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

You're not going to have any problem finding manifolds or a coupler since Volvo still supports the 454 installation. The major problem with that model engine was the ignition and EFI (if installed, since theres also no parts available) You have the ignition solved since the previous owner did it the only way it can be fixed: Replace it with a distributor (they also put that same ignition on the 460 for a year or so.....I sold the dist from my previous 460 to a guy locally that had one....he had no way to fix it at all.)

It also will not have the same shift cable problems, ESA and dog-clutch problems since it's a "CONE" clutch drive. Although not exactly the same as the newer Volvo Penta drives. It was the "test" system if you will, for Volvo's current drives. (OMC WAS the designer of those drives (during the partnership with VP) Then they just sold the whole mess to Volvo before they went out of business. The VP SX drives were the result of the partnership.....They're still developing and improving them.

By the way.....all these drives are tied together in one form or another...... A Kiekhaefer Engineer was the original designer of Volvo's first drive. (And OMC's drives too.) They all at one time worked for Carl Kiekhaefer (Kiekhaefer Mercury)

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/pat/isd.htm


In any case, If you want a Liberator. and you wanted to repower the newer OMC one, you could easily install a Mercruiser Bravo gimbal and drive behind that 454. You would need to remove everything and obtain a complete package (less the actual engine) You could also install a Volvo Penta gimbal and drive. (I'm not sure but I think Volvo has a kit for putting Volvo drives on OMC gimbals.....I'm also not sure about that particular drive/gimbal since it's different from the previous models that the kit was aimed at.... There's enough boats that are using the "interim" OMC drives out there that you could EASILY sell it.

(I got around $1400 for my 87 model Dog-clutch King Cobra drive) I also sold my 460 flywheel housing and inner transom plate for about $400 to a guy in calif who had the coupler literally explode and destroy those parts...Before he talked to me he was ready to scrap the boat since it wasn't worth repowering. (The 460 flywheel housing is not available anywhere at any price except from a boat being disassembled) All totaled, I got a little over $3000 for the everything on the back of my 87 Lib. and I still have 2 SS props, the power steering stuff, and the rebuilt carb/flame arrester (if anyone wants that stuff!!)


There is another reason to get any boat with a Mercruiser nowadays......If you like to do your own work or scrounge parts (which you might have to do with any OMC drive) you may want to stay with the system that has the largest amount of used and aftermarket parts out there. Go to EBAY and do a search in "BOAT PARTS" for "VOLVO" and another one for "MERCRUISER"

On any given day you'll find 3 times more parts, drives, etc for Merc over Volvo. (Right now it was 3084 to 823) For example, there's a guy over on iBoats looking for a Volvo Gimbal. (his was damaged somehow beyond repair)

An ebay search for "Volvo transom" produced about 30 with 10 actual transom assy's

A Mercruiser search produced over 100 hits and more than 25 complete transom assy's new and used.




I like the 86-89 Liberator "look" over the newer ones so if that one is in otherwise good condition you might consider it....and you might get it fairly cheap.

In either case, make sure you have someone that knows what they're doing inspect it carefully.

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Hi bacon1 that engine looks to be a 350 small block chevy the distributer on chevys are on the back of the engine fords are in the front, don't be afraid of the 460 witha a 3" crank they are a very good engine and make torq and hp at low rpm so might be a better bang for the buck and better on gas than those chevys, as far as the 460 goes in the liberators they are little more than a 1973 car engine and they are everywhere I have 10 in my shop and the blocks are solid most can be bored 60 to 80 over and some to 100 over and stroked to 557 or 572 cubic inch try that with any other engine.
Everyone here has given you some good advice have the hull looked over if its good and you got to have it buy it look on ebay OMC there is 50 pages of parts some expensive but out there and as the boat gets older more manufactures are stepping up with parts don't be afraid remember the 2 best days of your life first when you bought it and the secound when you sold it. Rick has been very helpfull to me on mine I purchased a 261 with twin King Cobras ( itll do an easy 70 ) maintainence and knowledge will make a great experience. Ive learned alot with the outdrives and can offer you help in my opinion the omc outdrives are very strong I know of a 514 ci and a 557 ci no problem just do your homework and maintainence. Well im starting to ramble so I will close with good luck Gregg Blakemore