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Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V275
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Author:  RD-Panama [ Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V275
Response from Four Winns Factory about my rust.

My dealer forwarded me the response he received from the factory:

"There are probably several contributors to this and it may be easier if you call me to discuss but, here are some suggestions>

1. For polished surfaces like the vents, bow rails and grab handles the staining on the surfaces is likely due to not enough cleaning. Using a product such as Nevr-Dull http://www.nevrdull.com/ or a stainless cleaner/polish as part of a routine/regimented cleaning will remove and keep it from recurring.

2. At the base of rails and fasteners I suggest trying a product called on & off http://www.westmarine.com/buy/marikate- ... 29_002_512 to remove the stains. "

So now we know. The rust on my brand new V275 is my fault. I did not wash the boat enough during the first 90 days to keep it from rusting.

Here are some photos of the rust that is my fault:
Image
rust1

Image
rust2

Image
rust3
Author:  alex8q4 [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
What is your dealer saying?
Author:  RD-Panama [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
Hello alex8. The factory's response is quoted in my original post above. Mainly it says: "is likely due to not enough cleaning" and then recommends to me some cleaning products.
Author:  RD-Panama [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
Oh, my bad. You asked what the dealer is saying. Here is what he said when he sent me the reply from the factory:

"You have to clean better your V275. I will order the ladder for you as a claim warranty but, if you don’t clean it and use the correct product to you will have the same problem with a Fourwinns and any other boat.

I could organize a visit in order to show you how you have to clean the boat."


So the dealer is sticking with the factory.
Author:  blue dragon [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
Whoa, are you boating in salt water?
Author:  LouC [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
I'd like to know who the supplier is for their stainless. And if you can't take a boat like that in salt water, well now you know why people here refer to sport boats and cuddys with I/Os as 'lake boats'. Because if you put them in salt water there are issues. But only if, they use cheap stainless and un tinned wire. Which does not belong on any boat, not especially at those prices!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0lcg8kglsone ... 2.jpg?dl=0

If you can blow this pic up a bit, there are no rust stains from any of the original stainless on this boat, the only stainless that was replaced is the rub rail (OE was aluminum and I had it changed when I had the boat painted back in '12). And as you all know this thing has sat in salt water every year since I've had it (2002) for 6 months each year.
Author:  byron [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
I responded to your first post as the person with the 2015 V275. The two products that they recommended to you are cleaning agents to be used to aggressively clean a surface that is tarnished. "Good" 316 stainless steel should not require this kind of cleaning after a few months. They should at least have a representative investigate the problem. Four Winns should do better than wash your boat better. That's a poor message to send out to a serious boater who just laid out a bucket full of money for a dream. How long have you had the boat in service and where do you keep it? Please keep us in the loop with this.
Author:  mkivbren [ Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf

Clean it good and use the polish & see what happens.
Author:  rpengr [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
mkivbren wrote:
http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf

Clean it good and use the polish & see what happens.

Excellent article. Explains that even 316 SST can have this problem.

However, I would like to add this explanation of "Passivation" of SST, which is the removal of surface impurities and subsequent rebuild of the protective (invisible) oxide layer that protects the SST.
http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/ap ... less-steel
Quote:
To passivate stainless steel at home without using a nitric acid bath, you need to clean the surface of all dirt, oils and oxides. The best way to do this is to use an oxalic acid based kitchen cleanser and a non-metallic green or white scrubby pad. Don't use steel wool, or any metal pad, even stainless steel, because this will actually promote rust. Scour the surface thoroughly and then rinse and dry it with a towel. Once you have cleaned it to bare metal it will re-passivate itself.


The cleaning with the acid based cleaners may do the trick, and the rust might not come back.
However, if the iron contamination is coming from an environmental source (high iron content in your wash water, or iron dust from nearby manufacturing facility or the dock roof structure), then the problem will continue.

Salt water is not the problem. It only makes the problem show up quicker.
Author:  TX H210SS [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
I agree with the above poster....this is something to explore for sure. I'm not saying there may not be an issue with the Stainless, but from what I am seeing it is not the Stainless that is rusting.....it is at the water hold points if you will near the stainless. Am i missing something in the pics such as the actual surface of the stainless rusting?

I would imagine if they swapped vendors and had faulty stainless, then we would be seeing all kinds of posts being made. If you think it is the stainless, pull one of the smaller pieces off and send it off for testing....there are chemical based tests they can conduct to grade it out for you.

I would not over look the possibility of it being something in the environment there though.

Has then been an issue with prior boats you have had at that same dock? (if applicable)
Do neighboring docked boats have same issue?
Have you had your water tested or is your dock roof rusty iron?

No implying it's your fault, just trying to figure out what the hell is up is all.
Author:  Graham R [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
Where the part is welded ( eg threaded plate at the end of the rail) incorrect heat treatment post weld or the weld temperature can affect the phase (crystal, if you like) structure of stainless steel, so it's no longer as "stainless" as it was Likewise cold formed threads on a U bolt in contact with a "virgin" stainless plate

Anything with bolts/ nuts, it's quite possible (likely) they are not marine A4 stainless; A2 are more common. Any crevices where salt water is present and A2 rusts like a demon. The swim platform on my 2004 Sunowner was held on to the transom with 1/2" 316 bolts and mild steel nuts; the end result as far as rusting was not a surprise !
Author:  Tarzan89 [ Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
I currently own a 2012 Chaparral Signature 270 and have had zero rust issues in salt water. The cleaning explanation is very concerning as the reason I am on this sight (first timer) is to learn about Four Winns. I have been in the market to purchase a 40' or larger vessel and was impressed at a recent boat show. I am now researching to see how they deal with customer service issues...major red flag. You can see the rust is coming from the connection to the hull which indicates the fasteners are not stainless. This should never happen...don't accept this excuse - especially for a new boat. I would threaten to make a youtube video about your experience and take a video of the issue and post their response.
Author:  rpengr [ Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
Tarzan89 wrote:
I currently own a 2012 Chaparral Signature 270 and have had zero rust issues in salt water. The cleaning explanation is very concerning as the reason I am on this sight (first timer) is to learn about Four Winns. I have been in the market to purchase a 40' or larger vessel and was impressed at a recent boat show. I am now researching to see how they deal with customer service issues...major red flag. You can see the rust is coming from the connection to the hull which indicates the fasteners are not stainless. This should never happen...don't accept this excuse - especially for a new boat. I would threaten to make a youtube video about your experience and take a video of the issue and post their response.

Welcome to the forum.

I cannot directly advise you on Four Winns customer service, since I have never attempted to contact them, and I have an older used boat.

Regarding this thread, we cannot jump to the conclusion that FW used steel fasteners, or there would be tons of complaints about the same issue. I still think this poster has an environmental issue at this docking site, which could be something like a nearby manufacturer that does a lot of sanding or sandblasting of steel parts. Such contamination would run into the seams and joints and collect there (and stain from there). One of the locations shown in his early video post shows a Stainless Steel thru-hull, and you can see a spot of rust settled just inside the mouth at the six o-clock position. That particular location does not support the steel fastener theory.

Until we prove otherwise, I would still recommend Four Winns as a high quality brand.
Author:  Graham R [ Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
There are a lot of different types of stainless steel.

Common in consumer products are A2/ 304 and A4/ 316. Both will rust in certain circumstances. the former more so. The latter is more expensive, not by a huge amount but I guess the OEMSs take a punt and use what they think they can get away with, so that 95% of customers affected don't complain !

The bow rails on all my FW boats have rusted slightly at the welds, easily cleaned up at the start of each season so I never complained (304 type I guess).

The screws and nuts holding on the ladder all rusted, the nuts more than the screws ( 304 nuts with 316 screws I guess).

The anchor compartment drain covers never rusted, but the screws always did. ( again 316 and 304 I guess)

All my VP stainless F series props suffered from crevice corrosion of the hubs; so it's not just FW that cuts corners as far as cost is concerned !
Author:  Tarzan89 [ Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Response from the factory about rust issue - brand new V
My main concern is that I really like the V458 layout both inside and out and I was considering the purchase of a 2008 model with 700 hours on twin diesel IPS 600s. I have limited knowledge of the FW brand but trying to educate myself. I was surprised that their website did not list any type of mission statement or anything about their company background, history, awards etc. It is possible that I missed this in my navigation but when I requested this on their customer service link email - I had no reply. I am growing skeptical after reading about rust issue. Any input would be most welcome from anyone on the forum.
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