www.iFourWinns.com

I have a 2006 288 Vista which we just acquired last spring. This boat has two starting batteries, one for each engine controlled by two battery switches, one for each engine, on the starboard side, and a ships systems battery controlled by and independent breaker. I have discovered through other posts that the Waeco cabin refrigerator will not run on 12v power as evidently Four Winns did not spec. a heavy enough wire from the panel after the breaker to sustain the voltage drop, hence the frig kicks into safe mode to protect the compressor. How this ever happened is beyond me. Makes me wonder who was asleep in engineering and quality control

To remedy this problem, I am looking into adding another battery and battery switch, 2 if I have room on the port side if I can squeeze it/them in around the water heater and VacuFlush system. From these batteries, I plan to run #10 wire up the port side to power the frig being mind full to install the appropriate breaker dedicated for the frig. I would also like to add an inverter off of these batteries primarily for brewing coffee when on the hook. This battery/batteries will be Deka group 31 heavy duty deep cycle batteries including a battery isolator. The battery switch, inverter and frig breaker will be installed in the cockpit cooler cabinet. I would like to charge these batteries from the port engine's alternator. Having said this and outlining my plan, I have several questions I'm hoping someone can help me with.

1. First and foremost, is this doable?
2. Is there anyone out there that has done this or a similar install?
3. Is there any reason why I couldn't use the port engine to charge these batteries?
4. Will I need to install a dedicated battery charger? I don't believe the current charger will be adequate since it's charging the existing 3 batteries when on shore power.
5. Is this overkill? My ship's system battery is a Deka group 31 heavy duty battery. Am I better off running the #10 wire from this battery as well as run the inverter?
5. Any insight or thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks for your consideration.

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"One Moor Time" 2006 288 Vista
"Kalin II" 1995 258 Vista
"Kalin" 1985 Four Winns 215 Santara

I purchased my boat in mid August of this year. I have not had a lot of time to familarize myself with the electrical systems. That said, the previous owner of the boat setup a system similar to what you describe.

The outlet in the galley, microwave, fridge, and cabin lights have all been removed from the shore power circuit and are now stand alone. This new circuit is run through an inverter. A third battery has been added, along with a charger, a controller, and 2 solar panels. The original battery switch remains, and I believe the inverter acts as a breaker for the new circuit. There is a wireless remote to turn on and off the inverter.

Based on my limited time on the boat I have to say I am very impressed with this setup.

"I edited this after reading the post below. I think my description is closer to accurate now"

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2004 - 288 Vista
Twin - 5.0 Volvo Penta GXi DP

As somebody who has tangled with electrical systems on both our old v318, and now on our 45 sedan bridge, I think I can give you a couple of interesting way's to think about it (and opinions along the way).

I think you have a couple of distinctly separate-yet-sort-of-related things going on.

1) Your fridge isn't running correctly on DC because of a wiring snafu. (I am shocked this is happening, but that's a whole other issue).

2) You want to increase your house battery bank's capacity if you solve problem #1.

3) You are considering an inverter if you do #2 so you can enjoy a couple of your favorite AC items while not on shore power (or generator if you have one).

Did I miss anything? I would re-consider tackling each of this as separate tasks. They are not really related technically to each other. And, your boat has a set of systems already designed to accommodate these (although maybe not as good as they should be). I would recommend updating the architecture of the electrical system before running a new circuit(s) with dedicated breakers, etc... I think you're complicating a couple things (like which motor charges what) by trying to tackle too much too fast.

A couple of considerations:
- Your boat already has a charging system. Don't muck with it. It's fine.
- You have a great topology of batteries -- dedicated starters for each motor, and a 'house bank'. Of course, I am assuming that your house battery charges off of one of the alternators already. Your problem is capacity on the house bank (#2 above, which we can solve without touching the charging system).



Now for solutions...

1) The fridge. If you have verified that the only reasonable fix is larger gauge wire than I suggest running a new wire to the fridge from the panel. It's not the panel, or the breaker that limits you. Just replace the wire. You can verify this solves the problem immediately, and has no affect on any of your ship's systems. Simple. No new circuits. Just use a bigger wire. Read the manual of the fridge to ensure you have an appropriate breaker. If you can't do it (or don't want to), it's a very simple concept for a marine electrician or rigger to handle.

2) House bank capacity. You have 1 group 31 Deka. It already charges some other way. Just get a couple of battery cables, a tray, and another battery and wire them in parallel. They will charge off the existing electrical architecture of the boat's systems. You don't have to worry about anything else. Don't do the 'add a battery kits'. Just get battery cables and wire them parallel. Simple. I did this on our v318 for more capacity (and many on this form have done this before).

3) Inverter. This is where you start to get tricky tricky. Wiring the 12v source of the inverter is easy... Just wire it up with a breaker, switch, etc... Wiring the AC side is a bit tougher. You have a few options. 1) isolate the ac circuit in the panel and wire the AC side of the inverter through. 2) wire up the inverter to light up the entire AC side of the panel. 3) change the circuit to not be powered by the panel, but rather dedicated through the inverter. All have pros and cons. Some of the decision will hinge on what/how big inverter you go with. Probably need more info on what you are thinking about here. You can go mild to wild here.

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

As mentioned, check the voltage drop using a meter at the fridge when it kicks in. If it drops more than 1.5V I would just replace that wire back to its breaker. In other words, leave it on the house system. But you need to do the math as to what size wire to use.

As to charging off one engine or the other. I bet you already have an isolator installed. On most twin engines, any one engine will charge both battiers and the house. If I did go with a isolator as you suggested, get one with a zero voltage drop. Most have a 0.6 drop. I would add a battery combiner with a control wire at the helm, but that’s me! You will need to know how combiners work, but there only a 3 wire hook up so there simple to install.

When not in use, manual keep it off. When needed, you can turn it on and add to the house battery or charge off the engine. I would add a on-board charger for that battery to. A plus 20 amp dual bank one. You never know you could add another battery and the charger can take it.

As to the inverter, keep it simple. If all you are going to do is make coffee. I would install a GFI outlet as close as a I can to were I want to make coffee and hook it up to the inverter directly. You don’t want the inverter to power your panel if its not big enough. The A.C. side is simple, use 12/2 stranded marine wire. The D.C. side is harder, most inverter are NOT ignition protected! Be careful were you install it. Than do the math for the size wire that you will need. “Load vs Distance” You want it as close to the battiers as you can get. But again, its not ignition protected so it can not be in the engine compartment.

On these bigger boats I assume you guys have generators. In this case are the fridge and other appliances run off of the shore power or the generator directly, and completely isolated from the battery bank?

I don't mean to hijack a thread, I am just trying to wrap my head around how these systems work.

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2004 - 288 Vista
Twin - 5.0 Volvo Penta GXi DP

On "other appliances run off of the shore power or the generator directly, and completely isolated from the battery bank?" Not the fridge, most can run off of both.

With a genset, on your A.C. panel has a switch to run off of ether one.

I have a 29 footer with twin engines, I have no genset. Its an option on my model. But in this range, 27 to 30 feet, some do and some don't. Once you get into 32 plus, 99.9% do.

Forgive me, but if John had a genset. There would be no need for the inverter.

That does not really address my question.

I recognize that the power source for some circuits can be switched between shore power and the generator.

My question is related to the interaction between shore power/generator and the battery bank.

Do these two power sources typically charge the battaries? My last boat had a battery charger powered by shore power, I don't know if this is typical.

Can a circuit be switched between 3 power sources; shore power, generator, and battery bank? I recgonize an inverter would be required. What I am wondering is if you ran your generator during the day, could you brew a coffee at 5 am without having to run it again. I would also like to know if this could be done without eliminating your ability to live off of shore power.

As I mentioned before, I have some circuits on my boat that run strictly through the inverter. This circuit relies on the batteries being charged by the solar pannels. I love it, it works great, but i am not crazy about the fact that I can't just plug into shore power and forget about the charge in the battaries for a spell. In reference to my original question, I am trying to determine if I can reinstate my ability to live off of shore power, and maintain the flexability I have now with my inverter and solar setup.

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2004 - 288 Vista
Twin - 5.0 Volvo Penta GXi DP

John, I would agree with Cougarcruiser that you should be able to add a house battery, check or upgrade your wiring, add an inverter, and you should have what you want. I would recommend at least an 1800 watt inverter, and preferably a pure sign wave model. If you plan to run air conditioning for extended periods or high amperage appliances on the inverter you will want to check the power requirements. The pure sign wave model produces a better, cleaner sign wave that is more identical to your home electrical power than the modified sign wave. You may notice that microwaves and some other appliances are not as efficient with modified sign wave. You may have longer cooking times or more noise from other appliances with a modified sign wave.

The boat's 110 volt system should have a transfer switch or a manual selector switch to determine what source to use, depending on the boat model. The inverter will need some type of a transfer switch to sense whether 110 v power from a generator or shore power is selected or available, or whether the inverter power is to be used. The inverter's internal or external transfer switch should sense if 110 volt power is available.

The refrigerator is wired on my 268 to operate on 12 volt power if 110 volt power is not available. My fridge is on the same toggle switch/breaker as the battery charger. When I use the inverter I need to remember to shut off the fridge/charger breaker. This makes the fridge run on the 12 volt system while preventing the charger from using battery power through the inverter to run the charger to try to recharge the battery that it is drawing power from. Hope this helps.

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Surface Interval: A scuba diving term for that time between dives to relax and prepare for life's next great adventure.

Current boat: '02 FW 268 Vista
Previous boat: '95 FW 190 Horizon

Both shore power and the genset can charge your batteries. Yes, it is very typical "My last boat had a battery charger powered by shore power, I don't know if this is typical."

On, "Can a circuit be switched between 3 power sources; shore power, generator, and battery bank?" Generally speaking, no. Unless it is made to as most marine fridges are. Take your microwave or on board charger, ether shore power or a genset. Not from your batteries.

Remember, batteries are 12V D.C. and shore power and genset are 120V A.C.

Does this help??

Hello and I'm back. Sorry I have not responded as I have been away. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. After having digested all of this, I want to keep it simple and Cougarcruiser pushed me in that direction. I don't plan to tie the inverter into the house AC system. My plan is to hard wire a GFCI outlet into the cockpit from the inverter, which will also be in a compartment in the cockpit, to plug appliances, coffee pot, etc. into. I have the room for another Deka 31 deep cycle and would like to put this battery wired in parallel to the existing house Deka (replaced last year) on the port side due to weight considerations, where the existing house battery is on the starboard side. So, the way I see it, what is critical here is making sure I have the right size battery cables to tie the two together. The run will be a little over 10'.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and giving me some things to think about.

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"One Moor Time" 2006 288 Vista
"Kalin II" 1995 258 Vista
"Kalin" 1985 Four Winns 215 Santara