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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am
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Hey folks, I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this, and what the solution was?

1998 Four Winns Horizon 180 - 4.3L GS: We took the boat out to the lake this weekend (2.5 hour drive btw), put the boat in the water, load it full of kids, wife and the dog, fire it up and thinking life is grand! then she stalls right there at the dock as I'm backing out... and won't restart. After farting around with it for 10-15 minutes at the dock later that night, I confirmed that there is indeed spark at the plugs... so I'm guessing fuel pump is the problem. Then I noticed that every time I turn the key to the 'on' position, the low oil 'oil can' light on the dash is flashing, even when I'm not cranking the engine.

Now at this point I had the boat on the trailer, just backed down into the water on the ramp... checked the oil, and it appears to be right on the line between 'Add' and 'Safe'. Since I'm still on the ramp the dipstick wasn't reading correctly so I pulled it out of the water to level ground and sure enough, the oil level is right on 'full'. However the 'oil can' light on the dash keeps flashing every time I turn the key on. So I figured maybe it needs to be 'reset', so I switched the batteries to 'off' for a few seconds, back on, and try the key in the 'on' position again without cranking. This time the oil can light doesn't flash, but after a few seconds it comes on and stays on. Tried cranking again under this condition and no go.

I've checked the connection to the oil sending unit that resides on the intake manifold back by the distributor... it appears to be tight. I've read that there may also be a switch somewhere that will cut off the power to the fuel pump if the oil pressure is low... anyone know where this switch might be? I've felt around under the motor by the oil filter, but can't feel anything... or is there just the oil sending unit, and a switch somewhere else in the boat (dash cluster?) that will take the reading from the oil sender? If that's the case then maybe it's just the oil sender that needs to be replaced? How would I test it?

thanks in advance for any assistance, I'd really like to salvage this summer without blowing a wad at the shop!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Location: ohio
is you oil sending unit a single wire or a 3 wire connector if it is a 3 wire and bad it could be controlling the fuel pump also if you have a single wire pull the wire and check the gauge for reading then ground it to then engine see what reading u get

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:27 am 
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Sting Ray

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It's a single wire sending unit back by the dist. Will I get an oil pressure reading if the engine isn't running?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:18 pm 
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one way will give you no reading and the other should peg the gauge without running engine

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:40 pm 
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Sting Ray

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Grounding out the sending terminal wire does nothing to the oil pressure guage with the key on. So either there's a break in that wire, or there's another oil pressure switch somewhere that's not connected? The wiring diagram that I have clearly shows both a sender unit with a blue-ish purple 'BL' wire that runs to the main harness (this corresponds with the sender terminal wire on my motor), and a 'oil pressure switch, audible alarm' with a 'T/SB' color wire also running to the main harness. I cannot for the life of me see this switch anywhere under the motor with a mirror and flashlight.

Anyone know where the location of this mystery oil pressure switch might be?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:10 am 
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Location: Baldwinsville, NY
If it has the switch it is down on the port side of the engine, bottom back where the oil filter is (or where the base is if you have a remote setup)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:37 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA
I can't say for sure, but I suspect your boat (1998, 4.3L) has the same set-up as mine (2001, 4.3L); at least the wiring diagram you refer to suggests it.

There are 2 oil pressure senders on this motor. One is located back by the distributor and is a barrel-type; there's some brass plumbing connecting it to an oil passage in the block, and it has a single blue wire with a washer-type connector sandwiched between two brass nuts. This is the sender that is connected to your dash/gauge; variable resistance gives a reading on the gauge. If you want to confirm oil pressure, this is the easiest place to add a mechanical gauge, as all you'll need is a "T" brass threaded connector and a $10 gauge from any auto parts store.

There's a second oil pressure sender, often called an oil pressure switch, which is screwed directly into the block. I have seen some that are down by the oil filter, but mine is the first thing I see when I open the engine compartment (sorry, the boat is stored off-site, and I can't go and look at it right now. As I recall it is forward of the air cleaner/spark arrestor, and roughly the middle, side-to-side.) This one has a Tan wire with a spade-type connector, and looks like ones on my GM cars of the same vintage http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=3272901&imageurl=http%3A//www.rockauto.com/info/KEM/PS139.jpg. This switch sounds an alarm in the engine compartment if the oil pressure is below 6psi. When you turn the key to "on", you should hear an alarm on the dash, and one from the engine compartment. When you turn it to "start", once the oil pressure gets above 6psi, the alarm in the engine compartment will stop.

I'm not aware of a safety switch that will disable the ignition if either of these senders reads 0, as they will both read 0 before the engine starts and the oil pressure comes up. Such a switch would make it impossible to start at any time.

So, finding this oil pressure switch is unlikely to help your no-start problem. The oil pressure flashing on the dash might simply be because the engine isn't firing, and the starter isn't able to turn the oil pump sufficiently to build significant pressure, so it's correctly registering a fault condition of low oil pressure.

I'd chase down your original thought of fuel. This should be a carburated engine, correct? If so, remove the air filter/spark arrestor and have a helper pump the accelerator a few times. Do you see fuel being sent into the carb? Can you confirm fuel pressure? Maybe a blocked fuel filter? I'd rule out the easy stuff first.

I feel for you. I'm responsible for maintaining our fleet of vehicles at home (7 cars including two from 1955, the boat and 2 dirt bikes); the boat is by far the most stressful because there's only 1, and if you're out on a lake or river and something happens, help is a lot farther away. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am
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thanks Craig-o for the detailed feedback. To clarify, the starter will crank the motor over, and there is definately spark, but no fire... which leads me to think it's the fuel pump cutoff due to the oil pressure light coming on. I haven't had time to peel apart the wiring harness to determine if I have the tan wire, but that's my plan... follow it to the oil pressure switch, if I indeed have one.

One thing I noticed with this boat though, is that I never get the audible 'chirp' when the key is turned on. there is also no audible alarm with the current no start condition... which if it were the oil pressure switch causing the problem, you would think you'd hear the alarm right? anyone know where this audible alarm is located? I've heard it once or twice in the past when starting the boat or turning the key on, but the boat is new to me and I've only had it out a few times.

thanks again for your help everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:35 pm 
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Location: ohio
is your boat fuel injected or carb

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Craig-o wrote:
...I'm not aware of a safety switch that will disable the ignition if either of these senders reads 0, as they will both read 0 before the engine starts and the oil pressure comes up. Such a switch would make it impossible to start at any time.

So, finding this oil pressure switch is unlikely to help your no-start problem. The oil pressure flashing on the dash might simply be because the engine isn't firing, and the starter isn't able to turn the oil pump sufficiently to build significant pressure, so it's correctly registering a fault condition of low oil pressure.

I'd chase down your original thought of fuel. This should be a carburated engine, correct? If so, remove the air filter/spark arrestor and have a helper pump the accelerator a few times. Do you see fuel being sent into the carb? Can you confirm fuel pressure? Maybe a blocked fuel filter? I'd rule out the easy stuff first...

I agree with Craig-o. It's normal for the oil pressure light to be on before the engine starts, until a few seconds after it starts. So the oil pressure switch does not prevent starting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am
Posts: 72
crossram wrote:
is your boat fuel injected or carb


Carb, 4bbl

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am
Posts: 72
rpengr wrote:
Craig-o wrote:
...I'm not aware of a safety switch that will disable the ignition if either of these senders reads 0, as they will both read 0 before the engine starts and the oil pressure comes up. Such a switch would make it impossible to start at any time.

So, finding this oil pressure switch is unlikely to help your no-start problem. The oil pressure flashing on the dash might simply be because the engine isn't firing, and the starter isn't able to turn the oil pump sufficiently to build significant pressure, so it's correctly registering a fault condition of low oil pressure.

I'd chase down your original thought of fuel. This should be a carburated engine, correct? If so, remove the air filter/spark arrestor and have a helper pump the accelerator a few times. Do you see fuel being sent into the carb? Can you confirm fuel pressure? Maybe a blocked fuel filter? I'd rule out the easy stuff first...

I agree with Craig-o. It's normal for the oil pressure light to be on before the engine starts, until a few seconds after it starts. So the oil pressure switch does not prevent starting.


So it would crank, fire, and then die if it were the oil switch? What's next then, neutral safety switch? Would it crank if that we're the problem? Or does neutral safety switch just cut fuel?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:42 am 
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Neutral Safety Switch cuts ignition.

If you take off your flame arrestor and look down the throat of your carburetor, and have someone pump the throttle, do you see streams of gas from the accelerator pump?

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'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Goldfish

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:37 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA
[/quote]
So it would crank, fire, and then die if it were the oil switch? What's next then, neutral safety switch? Would it crank if that we're the problem? Or does neutral safety switch just cut fuel?[/quote]

The oil pressure switch will not disable ignition; all it will do is set an alarm. As such, I think the oil pressure is a red herring, and has nothing to do with your no-start situation.

However, when the key is in the "on" position, and the engine is not running, there should be an audible alarm from both the dash and the engine compartment beeping on and off every 2 seconds.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am
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I believe you're right Craig-O... I think the Oil pressure light may be a red herring. Noticed tonight when cranking the engine that the oil pressure guage does read pressure. Pouring a bit of gas down the carb makes it start for a second till that gas burns off. So I went back to my previous no start diagnostic and determined that there is again only ~2.00 volts at the fuel pump relay coil positive contact... I don't think this is enough to excite the relay into switching the fuel pump on?

I know that this power comes from the alternator, however I've tried 2 different alternators and have the same issue. Is there anything else that would cause this low voltage at the relay coil positive wire? When I jumper the relay the fuel pump kicks in, so I know it's working. It actually filled the carb bowl a bit so I could pump it and see gas coming out, per rpengr's suggestion, but that only lasted till the bowl was empty again. I've also switched out the relay with another one, but that doesn't change anything.

Here's a theory, tell me if I'm out to lunch... since the carb bowl is empty, it won't run long enough to get the alternator to kick in enough power to get the fuel pump relay to excite and switch the fuel pump on, thereby providing the additional gas needed to keep running? I think I read somewhere that the alternator doesn't provide enough juice until it's spinning faster... so maybe if I 'prime it' by jumpering the fp relay for a while until the carb bowl is full, this will provide enough gas to let it run long enough to make the alternator spin up? Otherwise I gotta start believing that BOTH my alternators are pooched?

And if my theory is correct, what would cause the carb bowl to empty like that? evaporation from the heat?

thanks for the continued suggestion guys... really helps to have another brain or 10 on this :)

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