www.iFourWinns.com

Here's what happens when the dealer does a crappy job of both installing a waste tank sensor and not winterizing properly:

http://www.ideaspace.net/boat/2007/wastetank

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Nice. FWIW, my shower sump looked similar to that - even without waste tank problems....

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

I'm having a hard time figuring out which bilge area that picture is from. Can you help orient me?

Thanks
Ben

Tank is under the floor in the main cabin. The sump pump is in the small bilge right behind that (in front of the bathroom door). The thru-hulls are in the bilge under the back seat of the mid-cabin.

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

Gotcha,

I had asked another question that I just realized was dumb so I removed it.

Ben

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

Ah, sorry about that. That's the bilge area just in front of the mid-cabin wall. There are three bilge areas in a 348. There's the engine compartment one, of course, then there's one in the mid cabin and another in front. The forward bilge has a limber hole that allows water to flow back to the mid-cabin bilge and get pumped out.

So the pictures are of that mid-cabin bilge pump area, the rear edge of the waste tank when looking forward from inside the shower sump, the waste tank after the lid over it was removed and the broken barb on the shower sump.

What happened, near as I can tell, is that the dealer didn't re-seal the waste tank sender properly. I have a video of how the O-ring was smashed and how the GLOB of 5200 they put on their DIDN'T stick to the tank. There's a smear of crap evident where it leaked under it. They didn't pump it out before winterizing. So when the boat sat this winter it must've frozen and forced out their poorly done job on the sensor. Good thing I used decent waste tank treatments. It only smelled like "dirt" not fecal matter.

The engine compartment itself ALSO had that same appearance. There's enough gap around the waste tank lines to have allowed the mess to flow back there after it pooled up in the mid-cabin bilge. Since the batteries weren't on board there was no way for it to pump out. So it just sat. Fortunately a few applications of "Bilge Bully" and time with a Wet-Vac cleaned it up nicely.

That and they must not have winterized the shower sump. I didn't have the camera on board to document the mess THAT was. The entire inside of the shower sump was FULL of mold. It was more important to get that cleaned up that to take pictures. What I discovered was the barb must've gotten shattered due to ice. There's a back-flow valve inside the hose between the barb and the pump; inside the bow itself. That leaves water in there and when water freezes it expands. How it didn't rupture the sump box is anyone's guess.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

If the waste tank overflows into the bilge, it will flow aft to where the sump pump is. Otherwise the only way into the sump is through the galley sink or the shower drain. At least that's the way my boat is plumbed.

The head sink drains out a thru-hull as does the cockpit sink.

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

Hmm, certainly makes one think twice about winterization.

This whole thread leads me to a very interesting question. I'm wondering if you guys have much insight here. I am slipped in a marina on the Chicago River that has water movers and is bubbled year round to prevent freezing. This means the boat will most likely stay in the slip for the winter. I'm having a hard time deciding how to handle winterization. I've been told by the marina that many people have their boats winterized in place, especially with sterndrives by tilting the drives up and putting muffs on them. I'm also planning on using boatsafe engine room heaters to keep the engine room around 45 degrees. I'll have full power all winter and can run whatever heaters etc I decide. What would you guys do about winterization of ancillary systems? Obviously if I don't heat the cabin anything above the waterline is prone to freezing. I can heat the cabin a number of ways. The marina is about five blocks from my office so accessing it during the winter won't be a problem. I can check on it as often as needed and will probably use a remote temperature monitoring system of some sort. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Ben

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

If it were me, I'd winterize the whole boat and skip the heaters. Reason is that you guys get REALLY cold snaps and I'd hate to be depending on the power staying on to keep my engines, AC, genset, etc... from freezing.

I didn't winterize the engines last year but installed a bilge heater. I drained the water/holding tanks and filled them with pink anti-freeze and ran it through all faucets.

Around here 10 degrees F is pretty rare and never for more than a night or two. I was still paranoid and went down there a lot to check on things.

It was worthwhile for us though as Nov-Jan were very mild and we got a lot of day cruises in. No overnights though.

Will you actually use the boat during the winter there?

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

I agree with First_Mate. Skip the heater and you should winterize as much as you can do. Some things, like the engines, you may want to leave to a mechanic but the rest, i.e., gray water, A/C, generator, water heater, and other water lines can be done by you with not much work. Removing water from all systems is the first step. Adding anti-freeze liquid (pink stuff) would follow. There are a number of good reference sources on the web that can give you the details. The Admiral and I can do it all over a weekend.

Marylander

Be sure to check your insurance policy. Some have dates and requirements for winterization. Ours requires the boat be winterized and unused from the end of November to March. Since we'll have to repair we'll be pulling it out again this year. I'm planning on getting a full canvas winter cover for it. The covers are around $2k, but plastic shrinkwrap ends up being around $500/year. So the cover will pay for itself in a few years.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Bill,

That's a good point I will have to look into that. I don't remember any layup restrictions but they're worth double checking. When you say a full canvas cover... do you mean something more than the cockpit canvas? I plan to take down my camper canvas and put up the cockpit canvas that will cover all of the cockpit area, but not the bow.

How do you guys handle the water heater? Have you installed a bypass valve or are you dumping in 10 gallons of antifreeze? Seems like a PITA.

First Mate,

We do get some cold weather, I'm thinking that regardless of what else I do I'm going to heat the engine compartment if for no other reason than to keep the batteries and any water in the bilge from a deep freeze.

As for using the boat though I'm sure we won't use the boat in the dead of winter there are invariably late season and early season days in which we could use the boat but previously haven't been able to because the boat was already hauled.

Ben

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

I'm putting in a by-pass for the hot water heater, this weekend if it ever gets here today...

It shunts the water flow in two ways. There's a single T valve; some systems have two. The single valve type uses a backflow preventer on the hot water (out) line. Then the valve shunts inbound cold water over to the hot water outlet hose. To winterize it you shut the by-pass valve and then drain the hot water tank (it has it's own drain and relief valve). Then you blow air through the system to clear out the water. Then add antifreeze.

I'm also adding a kit just ahead of the water pump to allow using that to winterize. It's also a T valve. One leg of the T goes to a hose you put into bottles of antifreeze. You then use the boat's own water pump to distribute the antifreeze. On the 348 the water tank and pump are located under the forward berth. You can just see them if you remove the drawer. But for best access you need to pull up the panel on top of the bed. Not sure how easy a job that will be...

I'd really like to have some sort of way to fill the water tank from the transom shore water fitting. I think if I set up some sort of by-pass valve I could do it. I'd have to manually operate it though. Other than some sort of floating check valve I don't know of a way to do it automatically.

As for cover, I'm talking about one that covers the ENTIRE top of the boat. All the way down to just under the rub rail. That's how they usually shrink wrap them. There's a support frame (often made from PVC pipe) that handles keeping it from sagging. Some also have internal ties to keep it from flapping excessively too. I have a cockpit cover and there's NO way I'd consider it effective as a winter cover.

The value of a whole boat cover is in keeping snow and ice from piling up on the relatively flat surfaces. You *really* want to make sure the added weight of ice and snow doesn't sink the boat. When a boat's up on the hard that's not much of an issue, but in the water it can really be a problem.

Now I'm just keeping a sharp eye out for when pink antifreeze starts going on sale...

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Bill,

Please keep us posted on how the t-valve at the water pump works. That sounds like a much more convenient way to get the antifreeze through the fresh water system. I'm planning on bypassing the water heater but haven't figured out which valve set I'll use.

Let me know what vendor you end up using for the canvas cover. Snow and ice in large quantities aren't much of a concern, my boat is moored under a 61 story building. The slips are 75 feet deep so I should be able to back the boat up to the back of the slip and keep all but the most wind-driven of snow off the boat.



My boat is in the fourth stall from the right. When it rains the boat doesn't get wet, so it'll take pretty wind driven snow.

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

The valves I'm installing are made by Camco. I bought them through Amazon.

The only concern I have is the T valve has a pretty tiny aperature through it. I don't have a need to tremendous amounts of hot water but I'm hoping that won't be a problem.

The antifreeze T looks like it should work fine. The only concern I have is how to effectively place the valve so I can reach it. The water pump on the 348 is tucked down next to the fresh water tank under the forward berth. We have the 'stateroom' wall separating that from the cabin. But I don't think that'll make much difference. I don't think the 'voting booth' curtain setup has any better access to the pump either. I can remove the drawer and reach an arm (36" sleeves) down and touch the pump. So reaching a valve on it won't be impossible. But it won't exactly be convenient either.

I'd like to find some sort of valve on a panel of some kind. If not for just the antifreeze but also for a shore water refill by-pass. Has anyone seen a valve setup in a "pocket" of some kind? Perhaps some sort of shower mixer sort of gizmo. I could even go so far as to route a hose bib fitting up inside the cavity where the cabin table stows (under the mattress). But then maybe that'd just be over complicating it....

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista