www.iFourWinns.com

water collects on both sides - there are low spots that don't drain
honestly, i can't beleive this happens ... on a boat designed and built in 2006!

this is obviously a design/construction flaw.

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2006 348 Vista
"some days you're the bug and some days you're the windshield"

Nope that doesn't happen on my Vista.... But I don't have a walk way either

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Brett DiMichele

Yep, happens on mine. The worst around the waste fitting.

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

A problem indeed, but not one that can readily be fixed. I love my boat, but I'm convinced that NOBODY at FW has ever driven (much less stayed overnight or been downstairs on) a BOAT!!!! Really sad....

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

And how exactly do you justify that remark? I have to ask.. Have you been on other mainstream cruisers that you don't have this complaint about, and if so, what are your issues with FW that Chap and Searay don't have, etc.

I'm sure FW "reads" the forums... And I've heard they listen to thier customers. So why not aire the details.

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Brett DiMichele

Ben: i think your boat and mine are the same. FW simply renumbered it for 2007.

my pic shows the puddle covering the waste tank fitting.

i haven't talked to anyone at FW yet, have you?

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2006 348 Vista
"some days you're the bug and some days you're the windshield"

RJRose,

No doubt they're the same boat (unless you count the stairs, I've got traditional steps). I haven't talked to anyone at four-winns yet. For some reason it hadn't really registered with me that it was a design flaw until you posted your picture. Once you posted that I was caused to realize how much more dirt collects there than anywhere else on the boat. If I hose off the deck after pumping out I always end up with all the dirt from the area there after the water evaporates.

I haven't talked to anyone at four-winns though now I'm thinking I might. Really not much I can see them being able to do after the fact.

First Mate,

I'm surprised to hear you say you think no one at FW has ever spent the night on a boat. I chose FW over Sea-ray, Cruisers, formula and a few others because I thought they had addressed many of the things that I discovered in overnighting on other boats. there are definitely still some things I'd like to change on the 348/358 but overall there aren't too many glaring ones to me. Several of those (why can I get a bow thruster on a 338, but not on the next larger boat in the line?) appear to have been addressed on their newer boats (338, 458, etc).

Ben (who's about to head out of the harbor across lake michigan for a night in St. Joseph, MI our first "trip" on this boat)

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

Perhaps my comment was a little stronger than I really meant.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of things I really like about my boat, but there are others that make me wonder if anyone tests and uses these things before the designs are finalized.

In addition to the pooling water, the fuel fills are in bad places. You either have to reposition the boat or reach around the radar arch to fill. They could have put them at the rear or better yet, put both on one side.

My shower doesn't completely drain and the glass shower door doesn't prevent water from going to the vanity/sink side.

Storage could be better, while we love all the cabinets, I wish there was a place to store things like the cockpit table and its sunpad and the cushions that fill in the sofa.

CO. My detectors are almost guaranteed to go off if we run the generator unless there is a breeze. My suspicion is that this is due to a companionway door that doesn't seal enough. You can put up the entire camper canvas and that will help, but it also makes the cockpit very hot on summer days.

None of these are showstoppers by any means. I still prefer my boat over other cruisers in the size range. It just seems to me that these annoyances could easily have been avoided.

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2004 Sea Ray 420DB
Formerly: 2005 348 Vista

Firstmate,

Those are all legitimate gripes and something that if FW does listen, should address on future boats. The pooling water issue could be resolved by adding a flush stainless scupper at that location. But then you have another laminate penetration to worry about. I've been throughout my 248 with a fine tooth comb and I am amazed at how well FW builds thier boats. If anyone has ever followed any of the rantings from David Pascoe about mainstream boats, and then looked over your Vista you will see that they "got it right". Things like true water channels in the engine hatches that drain overboard via scuppers. Smooth bore hoses for bilge and scupper lines (not the chintzy pleated plastic). Fully gelled lower hulls, Backing plates on all load areas. No funky plexiglass windows in the upper deck, in fact NO windows in the deck at all, they are all in the Hull where they should be!

There are minor engineering issues that can and should be rectified in future models. But these are not custom boats, and some flaws only creep up after a hull is in service.

The genset setting off the CO Alarms is not something minor and it should NOT happen! You really need to look into why it's happening. You could have a leaky exhaust pipe from the genny to the lift muffler or from the lift muffler to the thru hull. I don't have a genny but I run a Honda EU2000i on the swim platform of my 248 and I've never heard a peep from the CO alarms in the cabin or mid cabin, when the companionway and all hatches are closed.

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Brett DiMichele

I have the same water pooling situation on our 348. What's annoying about it is it adds a streak down the side of the gunwale. It's worse than just the usual run-off line because the water really has to pool up quite a bit before it'll start dribbling over. This means it collects, dries, leaves more dirt, collects, etc, until a much dirtier run-off develops. It's indeed a design flaw. One that would be nearly impossible to fix in the field. It would be a good idea if they looked into a way to tilt that surface just a little bit to change the way the water runs off. It's not a show-stopper for me though, just something else to clean.

I agree with the negative comments regarding designers and usability. I've said this all along, designers of the express cruiser class of boats (regardless of brand) just do not seem to put much attention into actual usability. There's a ton of wasted storage space. Go aboard a similarly-sized sailboat and you'll see the difference. Granted, sailors on longer journeys have a greater need for storage. And more creative cabinetry might incur greater cost.

But could we at LEAST have decently designed storage for the stuff that COMES WITH the boat? No place for the cockpit table. No place for the cockpit sunpad. No place for the bow cushions. No place for the sofa cushion inserts.

It would probably help if the bow cushions were designed differently. We love the extra thick padding on them. But they won't fold in a way that's good for storage. Perhaps a zipper or velcro section between the pieces would make them less unwieldy.

The sofa extensions are too big to fit in the cavity below the sofa. They're used infrequently enough that it makes sense to keep them there. The space under the sofa is difficult to access. To say nothing of the HUGE amount of storage space WASTED behind the sofa.

I'd really like a safe place to store the cockpit table. It's heavy enough that you cannot just leave it resting somewhere. If it comes loose you're asking for something to get a heckuva dent in it (cabinets, stateroom wall, somebody's shin bone..) The sunpad is just long enough that it can't fit tucked back in the mid-cabin berth with being squashed, not good for the long-term health of the foam.

And let's talk about TV positions. The 348 has it mounted up on the top cabinet above the galley sink. This is a very uncomfortable height. If you're watching a movie within about a half-hour your neck will start to ache from having to keep your head tilted up. It's the same with putting a TV over a fireplace. It "looks good" but isn't very comfortable to watch. The trouble is there's really no other good place in the 348 to put it. The only other place on the galley would be some sort of swing-out arm mounted on the small cabinet (we call that the 'spice rack' cabinet). But that would put it over the stove burners. We have never used the stove so it wouldn't be a "problem" per-se, but still not a great location. It might be tempting to swap the TV with the microwave's location but that would put the LCD screen at risk of getting cracked during regular use of the galley. Once again, this is not just a Four Winns issue. Almost no express cruiser does a good job of placing the TV for watching from the cabin sofa.

My plan is to get an LCD and put two mounts for it; one in the forward berth and the other up on the port side of the radar arch. I wouldn't want to keep one mounted outside on the arch due to moisture concerns. But it'd be pointless to get YET ANOTHER thing that would require storage space. Since we have the forward stateroom wall (not the curtain) we can't watch the galley TV from the bed.

But even with these issues it's still a great boat. I've been inside just about every system on the vessel and have been pleased at the basic design of it. Everything is built well. The only place I can see a difference between this and a friend's SeaRay is in how the wiring is attached. SeaRay puts a bit more effort into designing how the various bits of wire are secured. Four Winns tends to use wire ties with screw loops into the nearby fiberglass. SeaRay tends to use screwed-down square wire loop holders screwed into a piece of marine plywood. Does this makes a difference? If you're not going to be putting the boat through rough service probably not. I can see why they'd do it on something like the 340-series because the Sundancer is also the Amberjack (just change the cockpit layout). The latter is expect to be going offshore for fishing. Open ocean beats the heck out of a boat. But that's really having to nitpick to find a difference. And it's NOT enough to justify the $60k price differential we found when shopping for our boat.

Don't get me wrong, it's great being on a boat AT ALL. But for the prices we pay it'd be nice to have a few things with better planning and design.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Interesting and thoughtful responses from everyone. I intend to address this issue with the factory. will advise the response.

Overall, I agree that FW builds a good boat. Like many of you, I feel FW does a better job than SR, formula, cruisers, etc. It just seems odd that a basic design flaw would not be remedied. When I look at the 1968 CC with deck drains moored next to me, I have to wonder what FW was thinking.

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2006 348 Vista
"some days you're the bug and some days you're the windshield"

I have the exact same water pooling issue on my 2007 338. I thought that this was a design issue for this boat but after seeing this posting it is really a Vista walk way issue. I emptied the fresh water tank to see if it would change the attitude of the boat enough to stop the pooling and it didn't. Maybe FW never puts their test boats into real world situations (fueled, watered, loaded down) to see how the boats sit in the water ?

My CO detectors go off for no reason sometimes. Underway at cruising speed with the cabin door shut ? They have been replaced this week under warrantee. There is a defective batch out there according to the dealer.

The fuel fill locations are absolutely ridiculous. It is almost dangerous at the fuel dock to have to pass the hose forward from the swim platform to a kneeling (on 1 knee) person waiting at the fuel fill. The fuel fills should be easily accessable from the swim platform.

Aside from these issues, I love my boat. My warrantee list has been all minor and cosmetic. Almost everything is now complete. We have spent every weekend and 2 weeks of vacation on the boat. It has been the best summer of our lives.

Does anyone know if FW has a consumer panel or a consumer advisory board that these and other apparent design flaws could be successfully reported and make a difference for future models ? ( so our next purchase will be better )

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07 Tiara Sovran 4300
07 338 Vista - SOLD

I don't know if they have a consumer panel but if you have a decent relationship with your dealer they have a form from Four Winns they can fill out and make suggestions for improvements. Just yesterday I talked to my dealer about the screen door arrangement. It drives me nuts that I can't latch the screen door shut and that if I have the screen door shut I can't hold the main door open. For now I'm going to solve that problem with a couple of hooks and eyes, but still a pretty stupid design.

Ben

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2001 Cruisers 4450
Volvo TAMD-74P 480hp Diesels

I've only had my boat for a few weeks, but that puddling is definitely something i've noticed.

Ben, if you ever want to pull into Belmont Harbor I'd love to inspect your boat

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-Tom
2003 298 Vista