www.iFourWinns.com

Gday All

This is my first post but I've lurked awhile and have enjoyed the input from all you great FourWinns Fanatics.

I've taken the plunge and decided to install a Northstar 650 plotter/finder on my 2005 V258 (mostly so I could use my CMap charts left over from the sail/cruising days).As I had never had a gas engine on-water other than dinghy outboards the last 18 months has been a steep learning curve ( eg replacing a windlass solenoid when all I needed to do was flick the cutout switch...hmmmm )
Anyways I'm in a pretty remote area and I don't really trust any of the local electronics installers anymore than myself so I'm trying a self install.I'd welcome any advice, but my burning questions are these:




1)In the above photo...does the dash fascia remove simply by removing the 8 allen screws?
Is it possible to just remove the GPS dash blank(centre screen with the logo)..and how would you do that?

2)Does the Four Winns wiring harness have a dedicated GPS offtake.I notice my fusebox has a GPS fuse.
How would I recognise it.

3) From the photos you can see I have a TV amplifier/antenna and VHF mast antenna to starboard for'd..what would you reckon is the best place for the GPS antenna(I have no targa bar)

thanks guys

The Captain

Most GPS antenna are designed to mount either flush or on a pedestal. You generally want it mounted where it's going to get the most unobstructed view of the sky. Up on an arch is great, on the console, likely to be blocked by people, is less than ideal. It would depend which antenna you plan on using. I'm not familiar with the Northstar options, so you'll have to figure out what they offer. If they offer a flush mount you could perhaps mount it on the foredeck perhaps a foot or so toward the center of the boat from that existing TV antenna. Depending on what the TV mount allows you might even be able to piggy-back onto it somehow.

It looks like those screws allow removing the panel in the dash, not the whole dash. In our 348 the dash itself is not "easily" removable. But you can get to everything behind it through that big hole in the center where the chartplotter is expected to be installed.

The wiring harness may or may not have sufficient wiring for a chartplotter. Chartplotters can draw a lot of current. It's not uncommon for existing dash wiring to be insufficient at providing enough power. This is most commonly seen as a 'winking' or freezing of the chart plotter. But if the wiring panel already has a fuse/breaker it's likely the wire is already present. Check with FW (or their website) to obtain an electrical schematic. It'll list what color wire is used for that GPS circuit. Find that wire up in the dash once you've got it open. The schematic will probably indicate if it's terminated in a connector or not (probably is). Connect to it and power up the chart plotter. With it on full brightness check the 12v power level at the connection. Then also check the power at the house/system battery. Do this while the engine is OFF and you're not connected to shore power. You want to see if there's more than a volt of difference between the battery and the actual unit. If so then you'll have to run TWO new wires (positive +12vdc AND ground) in a heavier gauge. Voltage drops over distance and devices like chart plotters are often very susceptible to problems caused by low voltage. Bigger wire helps avoid this drop.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

thanks for your response Bill.
Much appreciated.
I've got all the foldout wiring schematics that come in the back of the big 4Winns manual ..but they only list the GPS wire in the 348 navigation package schematic(but I presume 4Winns wouldn't go to the expense of having a different loom for each model - correct?)
By the way ,is the cover just held in by clips ?
Do you just push it out?

cheers

Nic

I would imagine a lot of the wiring is similar. But the boats are different sizes so I'm sure there are differences in some situations. The schematic should list colors of the wires, use that as your guide when you get behind the dash.

I didn't have that panel in our boat, the C-80 chartplotter was already present when I upgraded to an E-80. Given how much a boat vibrates I'm not sure the panel would just pop out. That and effects to pry it loose might leave you with unsightly scratches. I'd start by removing the screws and see what comes loose.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

you were right Bill
the blanking plate was held in by 4 long bolts accessible once the dashplate is removed.(lucky I didnt try to prise it off with a screw driver!)
The dashplate actually has 8 allen screws..very sturdy and long...you can only see 4 in the photo I know.
Once they are removed the dash comes out easily.
I'll run the power lead from the dedicated GPS fuse to save confusion.
I'm still not sure about where to place the GPS antenna..it'll have to be starboard..and I agree the most likely place will be just ford of the TV antenna.
I 'll try to post some serial photos of the install as it might help others in a similar situation

cheers

Nic

I don't know anything about that TV antenna mount. What make/model is it? Would you take pictures of it from some different angles? I'm wondering if the flat spot on top of it might be a good place for the GPS. As in, drill a hole in the flat point and run the cabling inside along with the TV stuff. This would avoid having to put more holes in decking.

Before you decide on the antenna location why not try a few first? GPS depends on being able to get a sampling from as many satellites as possible. If it's placed on a flat surface with nothing blocking the sky you have the best chance of picking up a lot of signals. Most chart plotters have a GPS status screen of some sort. It's on this screen that you can tell how many satellite signals are being detected. The more signals you get the more accurate a fix it can provide. So get things temporarily setup with a lot of extra length to your GPS antenna (most come with a lot). Move the antenna around to a couple of desired locations. See how many signals are obtained.

If you took some more pictures of your foredeck from some other angles it might help give some ideas. What you want to do it find a place that's not going to cause problems. You want to avoid it being stepped on; but they are pretty durable. You also want to make sure you can actually GET to the location underneath of it so you can run the cable!

Your profile doesn't mention a location. If you update this it'll help get answers best suited to your area. Given your use of British spelling I'm guessing you're not here in the States? I bring this up because of satellite radio options. Here in North America there are various options for satellite radio (Sirius, XM). These also use a small antenna similar to many GPS units (but not the same). If you were considering adding sat radio now would be a good time to give thought about where to place it's antenna. As in, pick a location good for both GPS and sat radio.

I'm glad to hear you got the panel off. As I suspected it wasn't going to pop loose. Saved you the pain of looking at scratch marks from trying to pry it! (voice of experience here, on past stuff not boats)

You also mention "fuse". I'm not sure this is the right term. Is it a switchable circuit? We typically refer to that as a 'breaker'. Or is it a small circular button? Those are also circuit breakers but they're not the switchable kind. A fuse is usually a plug-in element, either in glass or those U-shaped plastic ones. You generally want to have a switchable breaker for a device like a chart plotter. This will let you cut power to it. You'd do this for several reasons. Among which are: rebooting it, saving power, during lightning storms, etc. So I'm guessing you're calling it a "fuse" when you mean a breaker, correct?

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Here is a photo of the location of my Shakespere Galaxy XM antenna and my Standard Horizon GPS antenna (two little things to starboard, bow) they are tiny, take up very little deck space and wouldn't be hard to install. I have no issues picking up the satelites with this antenna location.

I would love to see some more photos of the TV antenna mount, I am very much interested in the make/model/manufacturer!

http://www.westol.com/~brettd/public_html/windlass/0623071721c.jpg

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Brett DiMichele

I've seen them up on the bow and that's usually a good location. The trick being getting the cable all the way up there. But if you use a flat wire fish tape and some fiberglass poles (electrician tools) it's not too tough. It's not "easy" but it's not impossible either.

Where ever you decide to run them make SURE you properly prep and seal everything. If you're drilling through deck surfaces you have to be ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that the through-hole get sealed properly. Otherwise water will get in-between the layers and end up causing a lot of damage. The safest way to avoid water intrusion is to drill the hole a little larger than needed and fill it with epoxy. When the epoxy dries you then re-drill through the epoxy. This gives you a hole through a sealed 'tunnel' of epoxy. The single biggest hassle is getting to back side of the hole and putting something under there to allow the epoxy to pool. Thicker mixing of epoxy helps too.

You'd be surprised how thick some deck surfaces are. Or how there's a backing plate or other structural member behind an area. I was surprised to discover the engine hatch is over an inch and a half thick when I was putting a drain in the locker under the aft bench...

For small holes, like a screw anchoring a canvas snap, it's usually OK to gumm up the threads with some 3M 4200 and then insert the screw into a pre-drilled (small enough of course) hole. The pre-drilling of the hole helps avoid gelcoat cracking, as a screw alone would expand things enough to be a problem.

If you let water get in-between the layers it will cause blistering. That and if the moisture in there freezes things start getting a LOT worse. This isn't meant to "scare" you away from putting holes in the boat, just a warning to be thorough about doing it properly. And NEVER assume the dealer is going to be thorough, always ASK.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

okay!
The weekend again so I get the chance to fiddle and clean!
Sorry I havent been able to reply to your stuff earlier but I have to work to earn enough to upkeep a boat
Yep..not from the US..I'm on the Gold Coast Queensland Australia.(my wife's from New Jersey though..does that count?)
The TV antenna is a "UFO"by Majestic a brand that was sold in house by Tandy Electronics..I've never been sure whether they are the same as Radio Shack in the US.Photos below.


A few shots of the foredeck.Not sure if the GPS would be mountable(as a piggyback) on the TV antenna but it's worth a go.Thankgod for double sided tape.My concern would be interference from electronic frequencies around the VHF transmitting aerial which is nearby.


Otherwise I'll probably run it down to the anchor locker and mount it there.Is there any difference bw pole mounting it vs flush mounting I wonder.

CaptainBucket,

Wow that TV antenna would be pertect on the starboard side of my 248. I don't see anyone in the states that has it. Majestic's web site said it was $30.00 AUD, I didn't do the conversion to see what that is in USD but I am going to see how I can get my hands on one of these if it works. Does it pull in stations for you? My TV is pretty much worthless except for watching DVD's and I am trying to get a handle on how I can install a small amplified antenna to pick up some stations. A guy at work is going to give me a Direct TV HD Receiver so I may also buy a portable marine dish to just set on the deck and install a waterproof through deck fitting with a quick disconnect and may just go that route.

Thanks for the follow up!

As for the GPS antenna I would say keep it away from other antennas. You can double face tape it on the ufo and see if it works but I would think there may be interference. Worse case scenario you can mount it in the factory location. I would flush mount it, I get great GPS satelite aquisition so I see no need to pedastool mount it.

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Brett DiMichele