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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:58 am
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Location: Central East Coast Florida
Last summer I was ready to put the boat in the water for the first time in Maine. I had stored it the same way I had for the last few years by winterizing it, flushing with marine RV antifreeze and fogging it. Apparently there was still some water in the block. I had the muffs on it and was running it up to temperature. After about 10 minutes the bilge pump kicked on. I inspected and saw water shooting out the side of the engine. Initially I thought I had a bad head gasket. Since I didn't have the time to get it repaired I just went without a boat for the month and trailered it home to Florida. I finally got a chance in January, yes 5 months later, to inspect further. It has a crack in the block just below the exhaust manifold so I pulled the whole engine out. The heads, intake and all the rest of the engine seem fine. Even the block seems fine as it doesn't appear to have cracked internally. Just a split in the water jacket outside.
I don't want to JB weld :) But I might consider welding it up.
I am now looking for a replacement Volvo Penta compatible short or long block. The block tag says it is a 5.0GL PEFS. It also says "reverse gear drive unit" and TSK SX-M which I assume is the outdrive. This is a 2001 Horizon 180.
I have found many places that sell new and replacement engines. I'm looking at a somewhat (2 hours away) local place in Ocala Florida that advertises on Ebay a re manufactured longblock for $2195. I would have to add the old intake manifold, the bellhousing, and the accessories.
I have done the removal myself and will do the install myself.

I was hoping for some advise.
Can these blocks be welded with permanent results?
Is this engine standard rotation? (The reverse gear drive unit statement makes me wonder)
Does anyone have suggestions for a new or re manufactured block?
How about closed cooling systems? The place in Ocala sells a kit for $730
My risers look great on the outside but the rear most tips are fairly corroded. How bad until I need replacement? I can send photos.
Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.
Rob

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Sorry to hear about the cracked block. While JB Weld is a good epoxy product, using JB Weld on an engine block should be nothing more than a temporary last choice. The block does experience expansion and contraction from temperature changes. These changes would make it very difficult for an epoxy to match the strength requirements of the cast iron block, especially with the temp changes and the water pressure from the water pump (even though it is relatively low pressure).

Welding the block by more conventional means (MIG, TIG, or brazing) is done. You could check with a local engine rebuild shop about having the block welded. The issues with any crack include trying to find the end of the crack, doing a good job welding, and stress relieving afterward. Depending on the location of the crack, welding may impart stress or distortion that could affect bearings or other characteristics. If you swap the block, make sure you get the right model. The Chevy 350 or 5.7 has been used in boats for at least 40-50 years. There are many different factory versions and horsepower ratings, so make sure you get what you are expecting.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 am 
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What caused the problem is the winterizing method. Sucking AF up the drive is very risky unless the AF can be kept hot by recirculating it because the engine will not get hot enough to allow the thermostat open which is how the raw water will exit the block. Either you drain all the raw water first and then suck in the AF or even better, drain manually and then back fill with AF.

Id get more information on the "reverse gear unit". Never heard of a rev rotation engine used by VP. They did have counter rotation outdrives though.
If the block cracked the heads could be cracked too as could the intake manifold and exhaust manifolds. The only way to know is to have a machine shop inspect them. If your risers are rusted at the outlet toss the whole exhaust system, it will rot through and ruin your new engine.
Id start with a new long block, intake and exhaust system. If you are keeping the boat add closed cooling.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Hate to hear about the crack...I would evaluate the overall condition of boat before deciding to repo were. The plus is you know what you have after done.

I'm not saying it's best to do....but I have a 53 ford tractor I've been running for 15 years with cracked block. Plus is the raw cooled system on boat runs cooler...but I got tractor after prior owner didn't winterize it and block had about a 4 inch Crack. I wired wheeled the area down...cleaned with acetone I believe, drilled indents at edge of Crack to prevent spreading and used JB Weld....it's never leaked a drip. I may have been lucky but an old timer told me this was way to go instead of welding cast iron was too risky. He told me he's repaired several over years same way with no issues....

Again...that isn't a boat but may be doable

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Location: Central East Coast Florida
So I decided to by a new block rather than disassemble the old block and weld it up. I bought new risers as well.
I spent the last couple weekends removing parts from the old engine, cleaning them up, painting them red, and assembling to the new engine. I just put it in the boat on Sunday.
I still have to install the headers and risers, I felt it would be easier to install with them off. I also have to reconnect all of the exhaust, and electronics.
I have photos but no good site to host them. PhotoBucket is full of junk these days.
]

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:06 pm 
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I read some of the other posts about inboard vs outboard engines. I have to say the Inboard Chevy V8 is very easy to replace by yourself if you have even a bit of mechanical know how.
I would say I am very experienced with engines and am not intimidated by a job such as this but it was actually very easy. The most difficult part was getting it in and out of the boat. I have a shed roof on the back of my garage where I keep the boat and a tractor. I doubled up a 2x10 beam and bolted in a 2000 lb electric winch. Easy peasey. Hoisted it right out and pulled the boat out from under it. I did use a secondary cable just in case the hoist failed.
I used my engine stand for most of the adding the parts to the new block until I got to the bellhousing and drive coupler. Then I lowered it into a rolling dolly that I made out of wood.
As I swapped parts from the old to the new block I cleaned them up, stripped them and sandblasted if they were corroded. Then painted the old parts red. I think it came out looking good.
Cost for a newly remanufactured block was $2200 and I got new risers for $150 each. Then new gaskets and cleanup for a total of about $3000 for parts and materials. That gives me a 305 V8 with supposedly about 230 hp. Try a 200 hp outboard.....I expect that cost would be closer to $15,000.

I actually looked at going with a 350 V8 and that would have been $2700 for the block. I could have had 320 hp but would have had to upgrade the carb and intake manifold as well so the cost would have been more like $4000 total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Looks great, thank you for the follow up and pics. Looking forward to seeing some water pics!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:35 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
Looks great, now I'd add a nice closed cooling system and never worry about a cracked block ever again, and enjoy easier winterizing as well.

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2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2007 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:55 am 
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Location: Central East Coast Florida
Hi Lou,
I looked into closed cooling and it's about $800. Not too bad. Until I can do that, I have added drain lines from the block plugs that are under the exhaust manifolds. They were not accessible previously with the header attached. Now I will have sections of heater hose attached with a plug that I can easily remove and let the block drain. I can also shoot some compressed air in to help it drain. I'll try to get a few photos when I complete the install this weekend.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:39 am 
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Is this boat used in fresh or salt water? Because if used in salt water those drain systems like Merc uses, do not work! The inevitable rust flakes you will get in the block from raw water cooling will clog the fitting in the block and nothing or not enough water will come out of the lines. Professional mechanics usually advise owners get rid of the single point drain systems Merc was foolish enough to install, while they may work in fresh water, as the boat gets older there will be corrosion in the block and they will clog and crack the block! They are a poor substitute for what all inboards should have, which is closed cooling. Every year when I winterized my 4.3 I had to poke the drains, to get them to fully drain, due to rust flakes. If I had one of those systems the engine would have froze and cracked many years ago. I am surprised you can't get at the drains, with the exhaust in place. I have always been able to get at them, but I remove the rear seats (rear benches) and all the engine compartment dividers. I have to get down on the level of the drain (basically laying on the deck of the boat) to get at them and rod em out. Same with changing the non-remote oil filter! That's another reason why I'd never put in a new or rebuilt engine without closed cooling and a remote oil filter system. Getting too old to bend like that!

Keep in mind if you have a nice non rusted block on the re-man engine, if you run it in salt for 100 hrs you cannot stop the rusting process and then can't really use closed cooling because the flakes will clog the heat exchanger. Then you're stuck with raw water cooling which is what caused the problem you had in the first place. Raw water cooling is just a lousy cheap compromise foisted on boat owners. It works on outboards because they were designed for it, inboards were not. They were designed for a pressurized cooling system with antifreeze + corrosion inhibitors just like our old school cars.

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2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2007 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Hi Lou
It is run in fresh water up in Maine for one month a year. I have until June to decide on the closed cooling system. That will be the first time it sees water. By then my budget may have recovered enough to let me buy that system. It would be nice to run antifreeze in the block and heads.
I would still have to worry about the headers and risers corroding though.

I decided against the block drains that I had thought of. I can reach the block drains but have to lay on the floor and reach under the headers. Not easy but doable.

I just got the distributor installed and the plug wires completed last night. I am ready to attempt a start probably Friday. Picking up oil tonight. Engine re-manufacturer recommended 15W-40 non synthetic for startup and break in. No synthetic recommended until after 100 hours.
Rob

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 pm 
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That will work, I for sure would try my best to not run it in salt till you add the closed cooling. If you are going to keep the boat more than a few years, it is the way to go. The manifolds & risers, you should be able to get 5-7 years out of in salt, but Fla may be saltier than what we have here. While Volvos never came with a full closed cooling system like Mercs do, I bet there is a way to make it work. Then all you'd have to replace is the risers, and that saves a lot of money on the exhaust replacement as a good system parts wise is about $700 or so (good stuff like Barr aftermarket, not lousy stuff like GLM). Even with the half system, it makes winterizing much easier, why because that suck the AF up the drive method can be used with closed cooling, it will fill the exhaust manifolds, risers, impeller and heat exchanger with AF in a few min. Then you are done, no need to drain no need to crawl around and remove drain plugs, etc.

As for me, this is the last I/O I will own. Whatever boat I have in the future will be outboard powered. I'm 62 years old and love to tinker but at this point, I'd love to have a boat that is as reliable as a modern car.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
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2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2007 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Motor looks super nice....good job going there. I personally don't mind the draining and winterizing as long as I have the remote oil filter. Of course I only boat in fresh water and fill with the rv pink after draining in winter....i don't bend so well but the plugs aren't so bad to get to on mine.

If used in salt I would have a garage sale to get the closed cooling in...salt is evil unless on Margarita glass....just wondering if I would want to redo work or bight bullet now and be done with cooling system.

Out of curiosity...is there a scrap value in old motor that could cover some of closed cooling system.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:43 am 
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TX H210SS wrote:
Motor looks super nice....good job going there. I personally don't mind the draining and winterizing as long as I have the remote oil filter. Of course I only boat in fresh water and fill with the rv pink after draining in winter....i don't bend so well but the plugs aren't so bad to get to on mine.

If used in salt I would have a garage sale to get the closed cooling in...salt is evil unless on Margarita glass....just wondering if I would want to redo work or bight bullet now and be done with cooling system.

Out of curiosity...is there a scrap value in old motor that could cover some of closed cooling system.


There are places that take scrap cast iron. When I got rid of 2 sets of the old OMC batwings (one piece exhaust used on the V6s) I took em in and got about 8 bucks for each set (about 90 lbs each). So we're not talking a lot of money here but its something. I think it was like 6 cents a lb.

Closed Cooling:
Think about it like this, for about $850 your engine will
Last twice as long
run closer to the temp it should
have a pressurized cooling system, which is what it was designed for
not develop localized hot spots in the cyl heads because the corrosion interferes with heat transfer
be easy easy to winterize
have better resale value

all good!!!

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2007 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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