Fuel pump humm?

Ccmblack · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:59 pm

Got the boat back today....both fuel pumps were shot. Mechanics said it was due to ethanol enriched gas!

Technologic80 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:24 pm

Ccmblack wrote:

Got the boat back today....both fuel pumps were shot. Mechanics said it was due to ethanol enriched gas!

Unless your mechanic was a scientist, I have problems with his assertion that 'ethanol enriched gas' caused two fuel pump failures.

After all, my Volvo Penta manual from 1997 states clearly that gasoline with up to 10% ethanol is perfectly fine for use in my 278 Vista.

While its not uncommon for electric fuel pumps to fail (they dont build 'em like they used to!) I cannot see how any mechanic could look at a sealed fuel pump and say with confidence that they failed from use of gasoline with 10% ethanol (which btw, volvo penta says is fine). :?:

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:33 am

Technologic80 wrote:

Unless your mechanic was a scientist, I have problems with his assertion that 'ethanol enriched gas' caused two fuel pump failures.

I cannot see how any mechanic could look at a sealed fuel pump and say with confidence that they failed from use of gasoline with 10% ethanol (which btw, volvo penta says is fine). :?:

The OP's boat is a 2010 so what else could have caused the failure of two fuel pumps other than that gov't mandated piss water? Up to 10% ethanol may be fine but are you telling me that it never exceeds that percentage given that this poison isn't mixed until it reaches the station? The OP probably got a bad batch of gov't piss water that just cost him $600+ in needless repairs.

EPA Warning Label for E15

Technologic80 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:06 am

298VISTA2000 wrote:

The OP's boat is a 2010 so what else could have caused the failure of two fuel pumps other than that gov't mandated piss water? Up to 10% ethanol may be fine but are you telling me that it never exceeds that percentage given that this poison isn't mixed until it reaches the station? The OP probably got a bad batch of gov't piss water that just cost him $600+ in needless repairs.

The E10 discussion has been beat to death and back on the web ad nauseum so Im not going to delve any further. I see on here you feel particularly strong against it and I suspect political motivation. Like others have said - its not going anywhere, no matter how much complaining we do on internet boards.
However, I have used street gas (I live on the water - dont keep the boat at a marina so I fuel up with a 30g gas caddy) for the past 10 years in every boat Ive owned and never had any issues. Maybe its because I use 89 octane? Or maybe its because I only buy from 1 specific gas station (Speedway)? I also have preemptively replaced old obsolete fuel lines and empty my water separator a few times a season, although I never find any water, and replace the separator filter wholly every season.

I dont know. But to say that a mechanic replaced two bad fuel pumps and blamed it on the gas is like saying the mechanic replaced a water pump and blamed it on the raw water. Or an oil pump and blamed it on the oil he used. How would he know precisely what caused it? Its not that easy, pumps go bad. Maybe they were bad from the factory or had some kind of restriction (fuel seperator) or theres more information we arent dissecting here like how many times were the fuel pumps activated with low battery voltage or on the other side of the coin, voltage spikes?

ric · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:11 am

It is mechanically impossible for E10 to damage that fuel pump, especially 2. No really. You can dump them in a tank of pure ethanol for 10 years with no negative effects. There are no materials inside that could be damaged by ethanol. I'm not kidding. There's no rubber, cork, or aluminum inside. Call General Motors who makes the mEFI4 injection system and try to explain to them E10 damaged their pumps. You'll get laughed at.

Reality?

A fuse or relay was blown, the mechanic replaced the fuse and charged you for two fuel pumps that he never actually installed and blamed it on E10. You bought it hook line and sinker.

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:05 am

Technologic80 wrote:

I see on here you feel particularly strong against it and I suspect political motivation.

Let me guess, government worker?

ric · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:36 am

I'm not political, I'm not religious. My college major was TV production and my career is VOIP telcom engineer. I'm not even a registered voter.

I love science. I love the truth. My stand on ethanol is out of pure science and truth. Your 2010 Fuel injected boat engine is 100% designed to run ethanol through it's fuel system. Telling the world that ethanol broke your fuel pumps is no more ignorant then saying straight gasoline broke your fuel pumps. When GM produced that engine's fuel system they didn't call up either of the two fuel pump producers that made those pumps (Holley or Walbro) and tell them:

Hey guys, I know you've been making 100% alcohol safe fuel pumps in mass production since the 80s, but could you do us a favor? Could you design us fuel pumps that are not alcohol safe? I know you've been making ethanol safe pumps for over 20 years and don't even have the parts or designs to make fuel pumps that could be damaged by ethanol, but please re-tool and re-invent obsolete technology so we could use it in our boat engines. Thanks.

That didn't happen. Ethanol didn't damage that boat. It is physically impossible. A scam artist took you for a ride. Does it say on the work order ethanol damaged pumps? If so, sue the crap out of that guy. Call up Volvo Penta, I bet they'd be happy to lend you one of their lawyers at no cost to get that piece of crap out of the marine mechanic industry.

Graham R · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:57 am

Some facts extracted from freely available scientific papers:

Pure ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible in all proportions.
Ethanol solubilises water into ethanol/ gasoline blends.
The level of water that is solubilised is proportional to the level of ethanol, but the relationship is not linear.
e.g.in one Czech paper, E10 was found to solubilise 2.5X the quantity of water than did E5. E15 will be even higher.
The higher the temperature, the higher the saturation limit (and vice versa).

The saturation level of water in any given ethanol/ gasoline blend is temperature dependent.
If an ethanol/ gasoline blend at it's saturation level of water is cooled, water and ethanol separate out.

No scientific surprises there.

As far as I am aware, a fuel / water separator only separates out dispersed water, not the water that is in solution.

So, a fuel pump/ fuel rails/ injectors containing fuel saturated with water and left for some time ( maybe weeks or months; over winter) could well contain separated water. As winter progressed and temperatures drop further, the level of separated water would increase. Are fuel pumps designed to cope with the presence of water over long periods ? If not and if problems occur, it doesn't matter if someone believes it's the ethanol that did it or not. that water got in there because of the ethanol !

ric · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:10 am

Graham R wrote:

Some facts extracted from freely available scientific papers:

Pure ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible in all proportions.
Ethanol solubilises water into ethanol/ gasoline blends.
The level of water that is solubilised is proportional to the level of ethanol, but the relationship is not linear.
e.g.in one Czech paper, E10 was found to solubilise 2.5X the quantity of water than id E5. E15 will be even higher.
The higher the temperature, the higher the saturation limit (and vice versa).

The saturation level of water in any given ethanol/ gasoline blend is temperature dependent.
If an ethanol/ gasoline blend at it's saturation level of water is cooled, water and ethanol separate out.

No scientific surprises there.

As far as I am aware, a fuel / water separator only separates out dispersed water, not the water that is in solution.

So, a fuel pump/ fuel rails/ injectors containing fuel saturated with water and left for some time ( maybe weeks or months; over winter) could well contain separated water. As winter progressed and temperatures drop further, the level of separated water would increase. Are fuel pumps designed to cope with the presence of water over long periods ? If not and if problems occur, it doesn't matter if someone believes it's the ethanol that did it or not. that water got in there because of the ethanol !

Stop right there.

If you leave any gasoline blend in your fuel system for months over the winter in an open air fuel system, you deserve whatever damage happens. Fuel stabilizer doesn't work on already old oxidized gas. If you didn't drain your boat's fuel system before storage and added it to the old gas already in there.. you effectively did nothing. It only works on new gas, and the engines have to be ran through with it in there for at least 15 minutes so the stabilized fuel is throughout the fuel system. Even then, it's not perfect. The best thing to do when storing for long periods is to periodically start and run the engine so the fuel isn't staying settled in one place creating deposits.

When I lived in Maine I would store my motorcycle in an non heated barn (Honda RC51) from October to April. Before storage it would get a fresh oil change, filter, antifreeze tested, gasoline drained and filled with fresh gas with seafoam and ran around for a bit, then re-topped off the tank. Every month or so I would start it up and warm it up and stay running for 15-20 minutes.

Come spring time and the first warm day? Put the key in, check tire pressure... and go riding for hours. Never a single hiccup.

Graham R · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:12 pm

I don't think I have an issue with my fuel. Fuel only oxidises when it has a supply of oxygen. I keep my fuel tank full over the Winter ( most of the boating season in fact), there's very little exposure to oxygen ( basically only at the top of the gasoline level in the filler line and very low diffusion). Fuel injection is not an open air system. Gasoline is not exposed to oxygen in there. Once the fuel has gone past the fuel/ water separator and into the pump onwards, that's where it stays until the engine is run again. How exactly do I remove fuel from a sealed high pressure fuel pump and the fuel rails/ injectors for the winter? Run them dry? I'm not sure that would do them a lot of good.

It's not just what can happen in the Winter; it could be boating in Autumn or Spring. 75 deg.F in the day, 40 deg F or less overnight if it's clear night and maybe 2-3 weeks at a low temperature until the next time the boat is used. Fuel containing ethanol is more likely to introduce water into a boat 's fuel system than fuel with no ethanol, you can't deny that.

ric · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:51 pm

If it soaked up that much water, it might misfire. That's about it. I've had that happen to my Lexus after it sat for 3 months waiting on a new performance transmission. Just added a few more gallons to put more fire into the mix, and drove around softly til the tank was empty of the water saturated gasoline

LouC · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:02 pm

Draining a boat tank with anywhere from 20 to 60 gallons left in it at the end of the season is impractical, dangerous and just plain absurd. Just who is going to do that for you and how are you going to store/dispose of that gas?
So ric do I have this right, because we have to accept that the gov't foolishly forces E-10 gas on us, and lets say you had a big boat with a 100 gallon gas tank, you would drain it at the end of every season assuming you do not live in Fla where you can boat all year. Handling anywhere from 20-80 gallons of gas, depending on how full the tank was at the end of the season is utterly absurd. If the boat sat for 2-3 years, that's one thing. But 6 months, absurd. Talk about an unfair financial burden for boaters who support the local economy.
The issues with ethanol and E-10, are not E-10 itself, most engines can tolerate PRECISELY blended E-10. But as I have said several times, and as just about ALL engine manufacturers say in their warrantee and operation manuals, more than E-10 is what causes problems. The consumer has no idea what they are getting. And we can't trust the overly powerful EPA to ensure that E-10 is blended right. There are test kits out there to measure it, and for people that have chronic problems that might be a good idea. I have not to drain any of my seasonal equipment, but I do always use stabilizer and I do run all of them (3 four stroke machines and 4 two stroke machines) every 3 months to avoid having gas evaporate in the carbs.

Now as far as the original poster's problem, I have read on a number of other bulletin boards that Volvo has had a lot of problems with their electric fuel pumps and I have not heard that ethanol was particularly implicated, but anything that causes a restriction in the fuel system such as a plugged filter can cause them to overheat and fail. For the record even though I have had to get my Q-Jet rebuilt twice, my boat still the OE 24 year old mechanical fuel pump.
I found this on the Seaswirl Striper website....

http://www.seastriper.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8867

ric · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:47 pm

Impractical? Owning a boat isn't just alcoholic beverages and bikini's. It takes a lot of preventative maintenance to keep these machines running smoothly.

boater · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:05 pm

Louc, can you paste that. Non members can't see the Seastriper forum. ( at least I can't )

CCM, Was it a warranty repair hopefully ?

My fuel pump went years before I had ever put e10 in.

LouC · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:19 pm

ric wrote:

Impractical? Owning a boat isn't just alcoholic beverages and bikini's. It takes a lot of preventative maintenance to keep these machines running smoothly.

Ah....you're talking to someone....who has been maintaining his own cars etc since the early 70s, have made mediocre cars last over 15 years, 150000+ miles, running a 24 year old boat with the OE engine still, so I do know what's typical and what's not. And, draining that much gas each fall, is an un-reasonable burden on anyone. Just price it out and see how much it costs. Doing it yourself at home is dangerous and probably illegal (fire codes). If the gas we use makes this necessary, something is VERY wrong. I do not feel it is necessary unless you have either too much ethanol in the mix (possible), a leaky deck fill that lets water in (possible too) or the boat sat several years with no stabilizer (also possible). The other issue with ethanol is the tendency for it to absorb water (open vent system on all boats) eventually the water drops out and goes to the bottom of the tank (phase separation) see how well fuel injectors and 700 dollar fuel pumps do with running water through them. Not well.
I do think the problem with the Volvo electric pumps is something beyond ethanol.

I did paste the link but you have to register to read it, basically it details many many failures and no real solution from Volvo. Kinda makes me glad I still have stone age tech on my boat. Never left me stranded. The last thing I'd want in terms of an I/O powerplant is cat converters, what another money boondoggle for boat owners in salt water. Enough to make high tech outboard look good. Try 2400 parts price to replace manifolds. Nice, every 5 years.

www.iFourWinns.com

Fuel pump humm?

Who is online