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 Post subject: In search of new block
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:42 pm 
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Tadpole

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Alright, I picked up a 1994 Four Winns 190 Horizon Dlx that has a milkshake in the motor. It has a 302 HO engine.

Im trying to figure out what block these boats use. I know Ford made a few changes to their 302 castings over the years and am just looking for someone that might know this stuff. I have searched high and low and cant find any real answers.

From what I can find this block is a roller cam block? I think thats really the only thing that should matter.
I can see one of my "freeze" plugs is slightly popped out, so im assuming the inside passages are cracked on the block.

I have found tons of 302's for sale locally and am just trying to figure out what I need to look for to make sure I dont end up with any surprises when I go to swap everything over..


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:11 pm 
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I hope you got a good deal.

Chances are that you have the standard block from 1992 or 1993 (for a 1994 boat). I don't know if you would have had roller cams. I'll let someone else answer that.

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"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:37 am 
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Regardless of cam package, a 302 is a 302.
Any competent mechanical workshop should be able to source and re-fit a replacement block.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Tadpole

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Im going to be doing all the work myself. I have built many engines myself in the past and just completed a short block replacement in my Bayliner.
I am fairly new to Ford motors and have just been researching the differences between all these blocks. I was under the impression that these do have roller cams, but either way it doesnt really make a difference to me. I just want to be sure whatever engine I find locally will fit these heads and the marine cam from the old motor. Lots of these engines I see are from the early 80's and such, but all I care about is if they have the same cam setup thats in this motor as that seems to be the only thing that could possibly be different.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:46 pm 
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is yours carb or EFi. my '93 is an EFi and it is identical to a 93 fox body mustang 5.0. neighbor is the fox body gooRoo have built dozens in the 8s so i trust his knowledge. I am a GM guy but he knows the fords and scanned the computer and it is a '93. I hope this helps.

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1977 14' CMF Skiff SOLD
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Minnow

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Pretty sure '87 and forward are roller cam motors. Not exactly sure if it really makes a difference on the block as the cam journal size should be the same.

Ok adding to my post as I was not thinking earlier....you are probably concerned about the lifter bores. If they are anything like chevy's, which I'm more familiar with, the roller block has a taller lifter bore. You can run roller cams in non roller blocks, but you will need z bar lifters.

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Last edited by FourWinnKC on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Location: Austin, TX
If that's all that's wrong it's a fairly easy just labor intensive fix. Shouldn't cost you more than $1500 total.

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1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:40 am 
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Tadpole

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So I guess I can pretty much pick any 302 block and get the roller cams to work. I found somewhere that said there was a difference, I just wanted to be sure I could stick the roller lifters in any block and make them work. I know from the Chevy marine end they use a different "Marine" cam for the boat motors, so im only assuming the Ford ones do the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:48 am 
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markland556 wrote:
I know from the Chevy marine end they use a different "Marine" cam for the boat motors, so im only assuming the Ford ones do the same.


They use the GM Performance part # 14097395 in all fuel injected late model vortec 5.7 marine engines. It's no "marine" camshaft. The 5.0 carb/fi and carb 5.7 uses their factory production line standard car cam.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6255412-14 ... t-350.html

Engine HP ratings are limited by intake CFM. The only difference between a 220hp 5.0GL and 270hp 5.0GXi is the air intake size. Now the 5.7GL and 5.7Gxi, the GXi has the GM performance camshaft and bigger intake.

Fuel Injection plays no part in horsepower ratings or fuel consumption. Carb/Fi get exactly the same. Why? Boat's are pretty much always constant RPM. Set it at 3000rpm and leave it. A properly tuned carb could potentially get better than fuel injection because the marine EFI 4 is batch fire and very wasteful. Now before you say BUT RICK....yes as of recent the new MEFI 5 is now sequential FI which is amazing and is better than carb in every way.

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1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:34 am 
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^^ what he said..

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1993 190 Horizon 5.0L EFI
http://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11136
1977 14' CMF Skiff SOLD
2015 Emotion Stealth Angler 11


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:24 am 
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Fuel atomization definitely plays an important role in efficiency, as well as a whole gaggle of other things that come with fuel injection that are superior to a carburetor. Are you telling us that a properly tuned carburetor atomizes fuel better than any form of fuel injection? Are you also telling us that a batch-fire port injection is the same or not as good as a carburetor? Are you also telling us that the properly tuned carburetor will stay "in tune" just as long or longer than any fuel injection system? Are you also telling us that the fixed ignition advance curve of the carburetor engine is just as good or better than a 3-dimensional ignition advance table as is used in a fuel injected engine? Are you also telling us that even a TBI flows worse at the throttle plates than a carburetor with identically sized throttle butterflies?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:59 am 
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kd4pbs wrote:
Fuel atomization definitely plays an important role in efficiency, as well as a whole gaggle of other things that come with fuel injection that are superior to a carburetor. Are you telling us that a properly tuned carburetor atomizes fuel better than any form of fuel injection? Are you also telling us that a batch-fire port injection is the same or not as good as a carburetor? Are you also telling us that the properly tuned carburetor will stay "in tune" just as long or longer than any fuel injection system? Are you also telling us that the fixed ignition advance curve of the carburetor engine is just as good or better than a 3-dimensional ignition advance table as is used in a fuel injected engine? Are you also telling us that even a TBI flows worse at the throttle plates than a carburetor with identically sized throttle butterflies?


In the marine world? Most certainly yes. MEFI 4 sucks. It's closed loop. It doesn't stay "in tune" any better than a carb. It runs on a pre-programmed map and that's it. It has no external sensors to adjust fuel delivery. It is NOTHING like what's in a standard automobile even from the 80's. It's not an upgrade over a carb. It's just more crap to break.

As far as ignition goes? There's no difference between a Thunderbolt V vs MEFI 4. The TB V (or VP system) are both highly proven and work very well. Or just install an MSD Marine distributor with a 6M-2L control and it's better than anything OEM (and still cheaper!).

Boats are VERY easy to tune unlike a car. You don't need fancy ignition or fuel maps. We're not doing stop and go traffic 100 times a day. We're not going from idle to 5000rpms every shift. We're giving it throttle to 3000-3500rpms and leaving it there. Do you understand how EASY it is to tune something like that, even with "outdated" parts?

I'm not trying to compare MEFI 5 because that is a true sequential and correct fuel injection system with oxygen sensors and such. Of course, if you're buying a new boat in 2014 the only engine worth buying is the Volvo 380 (LS based).

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:01 am 
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So, in your marine world, everyone uses the same prop, boats at the same altitude, and has the same amount of load on the boat all the time, so having a 3-dimensional spark table getting input from a knock sensor that adjusts for load, altitude, and fuel octane has "no difference whatsoever" than an RPM-only based spark table? And in your marine world, carburetors stay in tune indefinitely, deliver the same amount of fuel with every bit of the same amount of fine mist atomization as fuel injection, and the effects of fuel condensation on the cooler interior walls of the intake manifold have no effect versus having a fuel injector mounted right above the intake port where there is far less condensation issues? And in your marine world, the only reason that every marine engine manufacturer has switched to fuel injection is because it is not as good as a carburetor? Gotcha. :roll:
Do I understand how easy it is to tune something like that? Well, Ric, I'll tell you. What were you doing in 1999? Chasing little girls around your junior high school? While you were doing that, I was working and studying along with many of the "great" early "ECM hackers" of the day. I've contributed to the disassembly and table discovery of the 1226026 and 1227747 GM ECMs that so many people use to add fuel injection. I've erased and re-burned more UVEPROMs than I can shake a stick at. I've tuned so many different iterations of calibrations on different folk's GMECMs I can't remember half of them. I've converted from carburetor to FI on so many engines that I can tell you one thing unequivocally; in every installation, one thing was evident. A very noticeable increase in performance all around. So, Mr. Ric, you can keep your vapor-locking, hard starting, inefficient, compromise-tuned carburetor and I'll keep what all the manufacturers have switched to, even though they are the stupid ones and you're the one that knows best. XOXO, brotha.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:36 pm 
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1999? I was 17.

Well I built my first 350 and installed in my trans am in 1997. I was still doing upgrades in 1999. I was racing WKA gokarts professionally and finished 3rd at the world nationals racing Super Stock with an engine I built on Daytona International Speedway. I was sailing my Catalina sail boat. My free time was spent surfing not chasing girls ironically.

With all that knowledge you should know that MEFI 1-4 has no external input for fuel/spark adjustment. It runs on a preprogrammed map. No adjustments. It's no better than a carb.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:40 pm 
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we are dealing with boats that are thirsty not fruit cake ugly shoe prius. beer men grunt boobs grunt fast HP grunt Boat..... if i wanted to be efficient in fuel i would sail

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Not Penny's Boat
Image
1993 190 Horizon 5.0L EFI
http://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11136
1977 14' CMF Skiff SOLD
2015 Emotion Stealth Angler 11


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