www.iFourWinns.com

in 25 years of boating i have never been caught w/o winterizing the boat.
but it happened to me in lake october. i was out of town planning to winterize
when i got back to town first week of november, to late the two core plugs were laying in the bilge.
oil on the dip stick looks ok.
question is it ok to run the engine w/ muffs on and not coming out the stern exhaust? water will be exiting the engine core at the missing plug.
i want to check for water in oil before making the repair. the local shop would like to put in temporary core plugs and run engine then replace core plugs w/ the real core plug but that to me is wasted time and driving up the cost othe repair...

Why not try installing 2 of those temporary rubber plugs you can tighten to test it yourself?

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

thanks for the reply,
my thought also. just do it myself. then i think about it again why bother w/ a temporary plug. the rubber plugs are to thick, i'll just install the permenent plug. i made a jib to cover the core plug enough so it can't get push into the block...my hope is that there is enough room to get the core cleaned and set the plug into place and using the engine mount to support the pry bar and press the plug in. if that doesn't work then i will be dealing w/motor mounts/ engine moving.
any idea how much pressure the core plugs are uunder.?
z

If you had closed cooling it would be like 15 psi but for open cooling not much 2-3 psi.
Normally these are corrosion proof plugs if it is an original marine spec motor but if it was replace with an auto spec motor then those plugs will rot out.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

thanks again,
the plugs look like brass. i plan on using them over again. i was able to get the plug into the core for a trial fit, on the port side successfully. the strbrd side was different it was different. having to turn around caused problems. i am concerned if i go head first into the bilge i will need the fire department to pull me out. if the weather gets to over 40 i think i can get my partner to get into the engine compartment to install the core plugs. then run the engine and check the oil for water and go from there..... mybe a outboard onto the old four winns. what do you think of that?
z

If they are brass then that’s good, it was an original marine engine. I would coat the opening in the block and the edge of the plug with Permatex Aviation sealer and tap it in with an appropriately sized socket.
When I Repower my boat I’m going to add closed cooling to the new engine so I don’t have to worry about draining the block every time it gets cold. Just adding a half system makes winterizing much easier, because then you just drain the raw water side and the manifolds. This means you don't have to climb way down in the bilge to get at the block drains.

Outboards are very convenient and less trouble overall but extremely expensive up front and when mechanical repairs are eventually needed.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

here is a thought. after i get the core plugs the in engine i will need to winterize the engine. my kit for adding anti freeze thru the muffs to the lower unit leaks pretty badly. any reason not connect to the raw water pump? to my knowledge the is not an impeller in the gear case arm w/ a raw water pump at the engine.
what do you think?
z

I think those kits are a bad idea and would never use one on a raw water cooled engine. If your thermostat does not open long enough or far enough the raw water in the block won’t fully exit to be replaced with antifreeze. The safest way to winterize is to manually drain poke all the holes make sure all the water is out. I do back fill with AF but it’s optional.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

i did drain the 1 drain port and 1 daain port on the strbd side. i pulled off the hoses on the circulating pump and fill w/ AV, and they still popped. since i have owned the boat i have drained one drain port on a side. i have never pulled hose off the exhaults maniflods and used the AF kit to get fluid into engine.
now i am adding a heater to my winterization on the cold nights.
thnks for the insight.

If the core plugs popped out, then there must have been some raw water left in the engine, the drain ports can and will get plugged up with rust & sediment inside the block. The problem with what all the engine marinizers do, is this:
GM designed these engines to have closed cooling, they were not designed for raw water cooling which results in a lot of rust flakes in the block and can clog drains. Raw water cooling works fine on outboards because they are designed for it. GM intended these engines to have a pressurized cooling system with antifreeze.
So, every few years I have had to get down in the bilge, with my set of picks and small screwdrivers and dig out the starboard side drain on my old 4.3 (it seems that this is the one that tends to clog). The engine will have between 2-2.5 gallons of liquid in it.

I drain both engine drains, pull off the big hose at the bottom end of the circ pump, and disconnect the raw water intake hose at the thermostat housing and point it down to drain. Then pull the drain plugs on the manifolds

After it all drains, I put some OMC gasket sealer or Permatex Aviation sealer on the threads and re-install the plugs. I re-connect the bottom of the hose to the front circ pump. Then disconnect the top. Next I fill the engine up with either -100 Marine AF or a 50/50 mix of Sierra no tox PG antifreeze. I do not use the -50 or -60 because it gets hard between +7 and + 10 degrees F. In fact West Marine says that you should not use those if it gets below 20 degrees F where you are. After AF spurts out of the neck of the thermo housing, engine is full and re-connect the hose. Next disconnect each manifold feed hose and fill till AF runs out the exhaust. Then re-connect hoses. Lastly with the outdrive down, I hold up the raw water intake hose and fill it with AF till it runs out the drive water intakes, then re-connect. My Cobra outdrive has a few drains plugs on the transom mount that are drained first but this is peculiar to the Cobra.

I've been doing it this way for 15+ years with temps going down to slightly below zero and never had a core plug pop out.

If you are using -50 or -60, and the engine still has a bit of raw water in it, that's your problem. In fact you'd actually be better off just draining if the water has room to expand it won't hurt anything. If you want to use AF to reduce corrosion (and the right AF will do that) you have to use the good stuff. In very cold winter climates -50 or -60 in a cast iron block is just too risky. -75, -100 or mixing up some Sierra 50/50 with water is the way to go.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

so where are you buying the coolant and what are you paying for it?
seems to be a big difference in AF out there.
your routine for winterizing makes alot of sense especially now!
i have the water heater and fresh water tanks removed and i can really see what is what.
i will take your advice, change my routine, clear out those engine block drains,
switch to the much better AF/coolant vs a rv AF and most of all winterize in october...
thanks for the tiime,
Z

Well for one thing how cold does it get where you are?
if you get down to zero or below, the only pre-mixed AF I'd use is the -100 but it is expensive, for the good stuff with corrosion inhibitors.
I used to use the West Marine pre mix -100 (this is burst temp of a copper pipe rating, not freeze temp), this will remain liquid all the way down to -45-->-50 degrees F. But its like 12-14 bucks a gallon.
What I started doing a few years ago, was to buy the Sierra brand Propylene Glycol coolant (non tox) in gallon jugs and mix it 50/50 with water. This gives you freeze protection down to -26*F which is more than adequate for where I am. This stuff is $14 a gallon, but when mixed 50/50 that drops your gallon cost down to $7.00 which is more than the cheap stuff, but much cheaper than the -100. The Sierra stuff can be bought online, some auto parts stores and here in NY at Ace Hardware.
But remember, for freeze protection, you really just have to thoroughly drain, adding the AF is really to reduce corrosion in storage. Kind of like spraying your trailer leaf springs with Corrosion X (which I also do 2x a year). I am in salt water so we have to be ahead of the game on corrosion.

How cold is your coldest expected temp? If really cold the only choice is the -100 stuff as expensive as it is. With the Sierra you can mix it at a stronger concentration of AF to water, but then have to carefully measure the freeze protection, to make sure it is adequate.

Those suck the AF up the drive kits, are really risky. Many people have lost an engine using them because they do not understand how raw water cooling works. When you start the engine with the tank hooked up, until the stat opens, all the AF just fills the exhaust system and goes out the exhaust, unless you drained the block first. If the stat does not open, or only opens partly, the block/heads will still have raw water in it which will mix with the AF coming in but that dilutes the AF and then you get a frozen block/head/intake manifold.

They only work on engines with closed cooling. Not raw water cooling!

On any re-power with an inboard engine, I would never install a new or re-man engine and leave it raw water cooled. It is a lousy way of cooling an engine, not how GM designed it, its just cheaper/simpler is the only advantage. Closed cooling keeps your internal cooling passages free of corrosion, avoids localized overheating in the hottest parts of the engine (cyl heads right behind the exhaust valve seats) due to pressurized cooling (remember water boils at 212, but if your temp gauge gets to 200, its already boiling in that part of the engine), because the temp sending unit reads temp at the intake manifold not in the heads at the hottest part. And you can drain closed cooling faster because you just drain the heat exchanger, and raw water intake hose, (manifolds also if a half closed system) and don't have to crawl around in the bilge to get at those block drains.
Just my opinion after 15+ years of I/O maintenance.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

thanks for the detailed reply, i answered below your statements/wuestions iin caps.

Well for one thing how cold does it get where you are?
[MICHIGAN detroit area -30 FOR SHORT PERIODS OF TIME]

if you get down to zero or below, the only pre-mixed AF I'd use is the -100 but it is expensive, for the good stuff with corrosion inhibitors.
[GOOD POINT - VERY GOOD POINT]

What I started doing a few years ago, was to buy the Sierra brand Propylene Glycol coolant (non tox) in gallon jugs and mix it 50/50 with water. This gives you freeze protection down to -26*F which is more than adequate for where I am. This stuff is $14 a gallon, but when mixed 50/50 that drops your gallon cost down to $7.00 which is more than the cheap stuff, but much cheaper than the -100. The Sierra stuff can be bought online, some auto parts stores and here in NY at Ace Hardware.
[ THAT MAKES SENSE]

But remember, for freeze protection, you really just have to thoroughly drain, adding the AF is really to reduce corrosion in storage. Kind of like spraying your trailer leaf springs with Corrosion X (which I also do 2x a year). I am in salt water so we have to be ahead of the game on corrosion.
[BEING FRESH WATER SAILOR MY OUTBOARD WOULD COME INSIDE AFTER EACH SEASON. SOLD THAT AND WENT POWERBOAT AND THAT WAS MY THOUGHT TO DRAIN THE COOLING SYSTEM WOULD BE ENOUGH

Those suck the AF up the drive kits, are really risky. Many people have lost an engine using them because they do not understand how raw water cooling works. When you start the engine with the tank hooked up, until the stat opens, all the AF just fills the exhaust system and goes out the exhaust, unless you drained the block first. If the stat does not open, or only opens partly, the block/heads will still have raw water in it which will mix with the AF coming in but that dilutes the AF and then you get a frozen block/head/intake manifold.
[ YES, I ALWAYS UNERSTOOD THAT POINT. I SEE MANY YOUTUBE VIDS SHOWING HOW NOT TO WINTERIZE, HENCE THE CONFUSION. THOSE KITS REALLY ARE TERRIBL AND YOU WASTE TO MUCH AF, ALSO.
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On any re-power with an inboard engine, I would never install a new or re-man engine and leave it raw water cooled. It is a lousy way of cooling an engine, not how GM designed it, its just cheaper/simpler is the only advantage.
[ I HAVE A FORD ENGINE AND MANY SAY IT IS A GM I AM HOPING IT IS A FORD.]

Closed cooling keeps your internal cooling passages free of corrosion, avoids localized overheating in the hottest parts of the engine (cyl heads right behind the exhaust valve seats) due to pressurized cooling (remember water boils at 212, but if your temp gauge gets to 200, its already boiling in that part of the engine), because the temp sending unit reads temp at the intake manifold not in the heads at the hottest part. And you can drain closed cooling faster because you just drain the heat exchanger, and raw water intake hose, (manifolds also if a half closed system) and don't have to crawl around in the bilge to get at those block drains.

[ I LIKE THE SOUNDS OF CLOSED COOLING AND WILL LOOK INTO CLOSED COOLING REFIT IF MY
ENGINE BLOCK HAS FAILED]

Just my opinion after 15+ years of I/O maintenance.

[ THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR TIME AND WISDOM]
Z

If you get -30 even for brief periods, I'd use -100 if you are going to use AF....take a jug of -60 or -50 and stick it in your freezer at zero or the coldest it gets for a day, then look at it (solidified but not expended) do you want that in your cast iron engine or something that stays liquid (-100). Worth the extra cost.
Ford vs GM engine, easy to tell...
Small block Chevrolet (GM) has distributor in the back, oil filter way up in the back under port side of engine
Ford, has distributor up front, oil filter up front also on port side.
GM marine engines are more common, easier to get parts for but nothing wrong with a Ford Marine engine.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

thanks,
that is the clearest explanation of how to tell the differeence between the ford and chevy engine.
i have a ford, distributor up front and oil filter on the port side.

my partner and myself are discusing if the block is cracked what to do then.
i see many going to and outboard suspended off the transum a foot or more but out of the water it looks pretty stressful on the transum w/o any suport to the ground..
or
go for a rebuilt ford 5.0 v-8?
wdyt?