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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
STOP THE PRESSES! It's not what we thought!

So we always take the path of least resistance...hence the anti-siphon, then fuel pump. River test (with mechanic)($$) resulted in:

"BOTH FUEL PUMPS OKAY" Pressure is right where it should be. So fuel delivery issue is out.

Now they are looking at ELECTRICAL issue. At 2500 rpm under load he said the engine felt like it was "searching for a code" up and down but could not settle on anything, hence the swings in pitch and octave as the engine was "missing badly."

Now I am back to where I was a year ago when another tech put a temp gauge *under* the dash (the old one stopped working - the whole cluster is basically dead except fuel and oil and amps). He did not ground one of the batteries properly and I had all sorts of issues trying to get it to run properly. They ended up *fixing* the ground issue (so I was told) but I didn't run it again until now....and now it appears I have an electrical/code issue. Could be unrelated.

Anyone hear of anything like what I am describing -- and is it catastrophic? A Ford Mustang engine guy is expected to take a closer look at it today or tomorrow.

Thanks!

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
Could it be dirty fuel injectors? I'd want to pull the spark plugs and see how they look, either dark (too rich) or blistered white (too lean).
Could it be the ignition module heating up when hot and acting up?

I'd carefully go over all the connectors and grounds for the ignition and EFI system including sensors.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:41 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Possible solution:

Wiring good.
Connections good ( little dirty but cleaned up well)
Everything looked practically new. It better, I hardly had it running for the last two years because of all the wacky problems...

My shop (and their Ford engine guy who was has been out for two weeks) finally put a scanner (shop doesn't own one - but the Ford guy does) on it and found timing was slightly off and would get worse with rpms. I listened as he tried to explain and it was way over my pay grade. Something about a distributor that had moved or turned ever so slightly. Painting white lines and realizing everything was out of whack. At 2500 rpms with a load the engine would go "flat." More talk about harmonics and engine sensors that didn't respond well to the out of tune engine. I was wondering if I was getting a $300 con job! He says it is running as sound as long he's ever known it (15 years)

I'll find out when I get to put it on the water Sunday.

Til then.....

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:48 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
WE ARE SOOOOO CLOSE!

Update for you now:

Shop owner tells me the distributor was "ever so slightly off." He fixed the timing (which accounted for the dead spots on full throttle trying WOT)

Ran sea test (literally in the Salish Sea of Washington state) and there was some mild hesitation at throttle up (idle and troll is okay) then it would kick in. Much better at planing the boat, 3000rpm was solid ride for 90 minutes (with small hiccups of engine rpm). But the last 45 minutes were a terror.

Boat at 3000rpm and 25mph and all of a sudden the power died for 1/4 second and then caught on again. The two extra people on board would pitch hard forward for that split second. I thought it was a one-off but it happened about every 7-10 minutes after that. We were about 13 miles for the marina and the split second loss of power (complete shut down -- but amp meter, oil pressure gauge, stayed steady) occurred more frequently and would last slightly longer pitching people forward even more.

The last 5-10 minutes were event free. 3000rpm (never more) steady and the boat was solid, Overall the boat performed well save for those thrust (fuel?) outages.

The shop mechanic told me he tested the pressure of both fuel pumps and that I had plenty there. But I am wondering if I am at the point where I am seeing the fuel pump's last hours.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? It might have been a combo of bad things and one-by-one I am fixing them -- but this last piece of the puzzle is curious. There is an island mechanic who can help me tomorrow (Tues)

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:49 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
Are you sure this is not an ignition fault?
I’d want to see how the spark plugs look (center electrode porcelain insulator) and is like to check the resistance in ohms of the spark plug wires and also check the condition of the distributor cap and rotor if not checked in a while. Anytime I’ve had running problems I always check ignition first then fuel system.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
SOoooooo....the plot narrows. Plugs okay...great, in fact. Distributor good. My mechanic friend on the island put a NEW low-end fuel pump in for me ecause he heard it whine, too (and he saved me a ton of labor)(Sidebar: My shop wanted to charge me two hours for what he did in 15 minutes). But that did NOTHING to solve the problem.

The boat still CUTS OUT but we have more intel: It does it in rough water, when I hit chop -- a wake, or deep tide rip, big rollers. WHen the bow slams into it the boat cuts out for a second or more, and mostly when the bow is pitched slightly downward. Once we get up the engine catches again and away we go. Got caught in a nasty tide rip and the engine cut out and back in 3-4 times in less than 10 seconds...then we leveled off (mostly because I buried the prop to keep us as level as possible) and the boat performed admirably.

Now does THAT ring a bell with anyone?

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
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Location: Long Island NY
Wiring connectors...the 9 way big plug on the engine harness thee can be loose and cause similar problems, my mechanic put a hose clamp around it to keep it from loosening....go over the wiring diagram and check every connection for the ignition and efi system.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
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Location: Long Island NY
Ever get this sorted?

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:20 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Partially, Lou.

The engine cutting out was the result of gravity tugging on the keys. The floats on the keys over the last 10 years or so would pull down on the key that was in the ignition. I had moved and wiggled just about every wire and harness attached to the engine and it would never cut out. Just this morning I had an epiphany that maybe somehow it was the key cylinder and when I would tug down on the floaters (simulating a hard wake or hard landing) the engine cut out just like it did on the water. Bingo. For your enjoyment I put up a YouTube short. https://youtu.be/m6Xssnqs8ps

Sent the boat to a Volvo-Penta shop to scan the engine for the other stuff (engine surges between idle and 2k rpm, not being able to get over 3500 rpm under load, not getting out of hole with 4 or more persons aboard). Requires the equipment above my pay grade.

Will update.

Sidebar: I never saw as many boats as I saw the past week cruising the San Juan Islands. Could have walked from one island to the next without getting my feet wet, it was that crazy. Crfazy good. Happy to see people out.

_________________
Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
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Location: Long Island NY
The switch is an easy fix. There are 3 or 4 connections on the back depending on if it has an accessory position or not. On the back it will have a B terminal (red wire from battery should have 12v), an I terminal (purple wire will have 12v when you turn ignition on) and an S terminal (yellow red wire,gets 12v when you turn to start). Your I terminal (purple) might be loose....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
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Location: Long Island NY
Also your boat is a lot newer so it may not have this issue but I had 2 chronic electrical issues with my '88 OMC that I eventually solved;
1) batteries overcharging but dash gauges read low...
there is a known problem on older OMCs where the alt will overcharge due to high resistance in the sense circuit, so I advise checking the actual charging voltage with a digital voltmeter on the battery....if so the cure is easy...
2) check the voltage at your fuse box with the battery switch on but ignition off. Should be about battery volts (12.6) check between the pos and neg terminals on the fuse box. Then turn on the ignition, if its the same then fine, if it drops you have another problem that will result in low voltage to the engine harness with the ignition on, and the dash gauges. Had this problem my fuse box volts dropped to 11.2V with the ignition on, came up with a fix for that too.

so check these two simple things and report back....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
Posts: 5661
Location: Long Island NY
Also your boat is a lot newer so it may not have this issue but I had 2 chronic electrical issues with my '88 OMC that I eventually solved;
1) batteries overcharging but dash gauges read low...
there is a known problem on older OMCs where the alt will overcharge due to high resistance in the sense circuit, so I advise checking the actual charging voltage with a digital voltmeter on the battery....if so the cure is easy...
2) check the voltage at your fuse box with the battery switch on but ignition off. Should be about battery volts (12.6) check between the pos and neg terminals on the fuse box. Then turn on the ignition, if its the same then fine, if it drops you have another problem that will result in low voltage to the engine harness with the ignition on, and the dash gauges. Had this problem my fuse box volts dropped to 11.2V with the ignition on, came up with a fix for that too.

so check these two simple things and report back....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:02 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Updating for all who read this (and especially LOU)...

Key cylinder is replaced, no more power cut outs. Wiring has been inspected, all good. Plugs A-okay. In fact, the electrical is working perfectly now. Engine scan came up with no red flags. Whatever engine surge I was hearing was not affecting performance. Engine is tuned as well as it could be.

BUT when the shop took the boat on the water they, too, felt the power ceiling at around 3500 RPM. Just couldn't get it any higher at WOT - and with it the loss of additional thrust.

The shop asked for permission to pull of the drive to look at the EXHAUST. The tech thinks a flap might have dislodged and got stuck sideways and is disrupting the exhaust flow; backing it up into the engine at higher RPMs with loss of performance.

Have you ever heard of ANYTHING LIKE THAT???

If that is what it is, I'll be shocked. The exhaust manifolds were replaced two years ago -- wonder if it had anything to do with that. The shop thought "no." Even though they were custom built for the engine (Was told Four Winns does not manufacture the parts anymore) they appear to be wholly serviceable.

With the drive off the tech will have a better idea about what might be blocking the exhaust, if that is the problem (almost HAS to be, there's nothing else).

It's been too many years since the stern has been removed. Because of the salt (am guessing) the bolts are nearly frozen on. They need a blow torch to warm them up enough to come off.

More as I find out...

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
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Location: Long Island NY
If it’s a ‘96 then it did come with flappers that would be at the top of the Y pipe that would’ve been in plain view when replacing manifolds and elbows. VP discontinued them in 99 because they felt that the did not always prevent water intrusion and if the engine overheated they could and did melt, drop down and block the exhaust depending on where they wound up. I had this happen after a bad overheat in 2013 and had to pull the drive to get them all out. I disagreed with VP over the need for them and reinstalled them.
You know you should be pulling the drive each season, that’s the only way to really prevent expensive problems with the drive unit. Mine just slides right off despite 18+ years of salt water use.
You’re a patient man by now I would have pulled off all that VP electronic fuel injection stuff and bought a Ford 4 bbl intake and installed a Holley 600 cfm carb and (if I could find one) a simple Prestolite points distributor with mechanical spark advance!!!
PS that’s how earlier versions of the Ford 5.8 were set up for marine use. Points distributor and Holley 4160 4bbl. Works just fine and easier to repair!

PS my old engine with the Prestolite points distributor and Rochester Quadrajet 4bbl carb easily pulls 4900 rpm at wide open throttle. See old technology works!
This is with a 15.5”x15” prop on a 1.60:1 Cobra drive ratio. What prop do you have on yours?
PPS...has anyone put an advance timing light on this engine and checked if the electronic ignition is properly advancing as it should be?

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:44 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Final Verdict: FLAPPER stuck in the exhaust. It was causing backup into the engine and thus could not get the power it needed (surprised it did as well as it did). Had to pull the drive, Flapper was been removed, the telemetry is now all green (new key cylinder, new fuel pump, new anti-siphon valve, engine timing tweaked, injectors inspected, distributor checked, new belts....and it is heading out for a river-run when it stops raining. All THAT (hours and hours and $$) to get to the bottom of it...after 2 years of mystery. They even managed to fix a couple of things on my rusting trailer. I cannot wait for next summer.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in...I always appreciate the feedback.

_________________
Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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