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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:46 am 
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Well well, imagine that!
I have replaced those same flappers on mine and I can tell you that the only way they get dislodged is if you have an overheat, and the get melted then they can fall down. Otherwise the flapper is tightly held in place with 2 grommets that press into holes in the Y pipe and a steel rod to hold it so it can open and close. Let us know what the outcome is, certainly excessive back pressure can cause performance problems.

If the shop winds up removing them completely, make sure you have enough height of the exhaust elbows above the static water line to prevent water from coming back up the exhaust, that will cause an even worse problem than you had!

To measure...put the boat in the water.....and ....put a long piece of wood across the gunnels of the boat with the engine cover open, right over the exhaust elbows. Make sure the wood overhangs the sides of the gunnels. Now measure down to the water line from the piece of wood.... record that measurement. Next measure from the piece of wood to the top of the exhaust elbow. Subtract measurement #2 from #1, it should be at least 12-13". If its less, your elbows may not be high enough and you can get water up the exhaust causing hydrolock (very bad, can ruin the engine). VP does sell taller elbows for those situations.

https://www.perfprotech.com/blog/articl ... ser-height

this explains it nicely....
so while Volvo felt these could be removed....they should have also said...but...you must make sure the elbows are high enough, based on the fact that there are many different engine installations in all the different boat designs....
BTW, Mercs still have flappers and I think that if I was going to remove this style of OMC/Volvo flapper, I'd look removing the exhaust bellows and fitting a flapper like inboards have over the opening in the gimble housing. As you can see I'm really not 100% in agreement with Volvo on this point...

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
After all that....well, all that $$$. Still not sea-worthy...

The flappers were repaired, had many other things done to the engine to make sure it would be ready for Summer 2021 and put it in the water a month ago and....while the "POWER" was back (came out of the hole nicely) it still has an issue of the engine "jerking" while under load. Best way to describe it is at, let's say, 3000rpm power cuts sharply for a second, then kicks right back in back in. It's enough to have passengers jerk forward and then back. But it happens every 8 to 10 seconds.

I took it back to the Four Winns shop (Ford Motor) and they apologized that they still haven't fixed it. So here's the mystery and maybe this makes sense to you (it does NOT to me)(this has been a years long process)

They checked compression on the port cylinders and found them to be at 125-115-115-130. Starboard cylinders were 118-115-113-100. "Uneven compression" That's greek to me. He asked if the engine had been rebuilt and I said yes, about 12 years ago. He didn't touch on that again.

The plot thickens: He then told me the #8 cylinder was erratic so they pulled the spark plug and found that it had blown up. The center of the plug (everything from the shell to the terminal)(basically the while insulator) was gone -- just a stem was left holding it together. Electrodes looked fine, so did the insulator tip. No burn marks under the thread. "I've never seen anything like it before," I am told. They scoped the #8 cylinder and piston head and found no anomalies, no burn marks there, either. Looked normal.

They plan to replace ALL spark plugs and take it out for another test run.

Any guesses on what happened? Could all this have been over a defective spark plug?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:47 am 
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Yes that is possible because if you aren't careful when installing plugs and use a good spark plug socket you can crack the external porcelain and create a weak spot. If someone removes the exhaust manifolds (real heavy) and doesn't remove the plugs first it can slip and crack that porcelain as well. Keep in mind the full compression pressure of the engine is against the other side of that porcelain.
So you were running on 7 cylinders!
BTW those compression test results are acceptable but kind of low, when I replaced the cyl heads on my old '88 4.3 V6 I got 165-170 psi on all the cyls. Lowest should be approx 75% of the highest.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:22 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
Lou I learn so much from you.

Interesting you mention exhaust manifolds, they were replaced before last summer when all this jerking was just starting...

Hope I did no damage using 7 cylinders...but the scope says I'm ok in that department. Waiting for a report from the mechanic(s) on the sea trial....

I'll let you know here.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:48 pm 
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I would replace the 8 plugs and try it again. While you're at it, look at the porcelain on the center electrode insulator of each plug, this will tell you if fuel mix is close to right (light tan to light grey) blistered white is too lean, black is too rich. These old school cast iron engine are tough, not to worry too much, but if you are running too lean you want to attend to that, because a boat motor is under constant load. The marine carbs are set up slightly rich for this reason. Excessively lean mixtures overheat and burn valves and lead to low compression.

The main things for marine engine longevity:

proper exhaust system maintenance, you don't want water leaking back into a cyl from a leaky manifold to elbow gasket
proper propeller selection, you want the engine to develop the specified max rpm as per manufacturer's specs (4600-4800 rpm for most engines), this is to keep the engine for laboring as it pulls the engine up on plane
maintain cooling system to avoid overheats
oil changes, tune ups etc.
use good quality fuel I use 89 or higher and check timing and total timing advance each year.

oh and if you have a Ford engine, its either a 5.0 liter (302 cubic inches for us old non metric guys) or a 5.8 (351 cubic inches). Both are good engines.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:45 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
Lou, et al. My boat is near death.

The shop called to say they took it out on the water and that it ran great for 20 minutes then had a loss of power (4k-3k rpm)

It limped to shore and they pulled the plugs and now TWO of them were fried.

They are at the end of their rope. They cannot figure out what is wrong with the engine. I've darn near replaced everything else.

    I am told it is running lean.
    It could be a computer problem but the boat is 25 years old and they don't have parts.
    Also could be a fuel injection problem -- they thought maybe they could PULL THE INJECTORS and widen them. About $800 with no guarantee.
    The engine was rebuilt 12 years ago and they are thinking it is at the end of its natural life.
    Replacing engine is not an option -- parts to work with it are no longer made. It would be an expensive endeavor.

Everything else about the boat is new. The fiberglass has no scratches, the seats are still whole, glass perfect.
Just a disappointment since it was running (not great) the last two summers.

I am into this thing for about $6K right now and I have not even taken it on the water. They suggested I list it on Craigslist as a "Mechanic's Special" for about that. He figures it's about 30-40 hours worth of sleuthing and work. (At $135 an hour it's another $5K just to see the shop try some of the above)(with no guarantee it will work or last because of the engine's age).

They were not too complimentary about the Ford 5.0 Engine as a whole.

Well gang? Any thoughts?

Mark (in mourning)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:51 pm 
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I would:
Buy a used Ford 4 bbl intake manifold for the 302
Buy a Holley 4160 4bbl carb calibrated for the 302
Buy a Carter mechanical fuel pump
This is what the 302 had before the EFI was added

Remove all the EFI stuff and sell it on eBay to recover costs
Your boat will be 100% better off a simple fuel system any old school mechanic can work on.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:36 am 
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Also you can still find remanufactured Ford marine 302s.
It’s not an impossible job junk the NLA fuel injection and go back to a carb where the aftermarket supports both Holley and Edelbrock carbs. If the marina is clueless find a good hot rod shop to do the work. I’m glad my old boat has a carb and a simple points distributor.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
The general consensus is that the engine block motor is fine and not the cause of the issues. The Volvo-ization of the engine block is what has people stumped. I towed the boat up to Orcas Island this weekend so that the marine mechanic there (who is familiar with the boat) can look at it. He believes the injectors are being clogged by possible rust in the fuel rail to injectors. He saw this in another volvo-ised engine a couple of years ago. He is pulling injectors and expects to see little specks of rust in there. We will see what happens.

In the last river run discussed above the spark plug electrodes were burned off #5 and #7 cylinder. The first river run burned out electrode on #8 cylinder. So it is random. Here are the exact words of the shop that failed to zero in on what was going on. This is from when I brought it in through the two river tests....

"When first trying to start the motor it would not start. we found that the ECU was wired direct to one of the batteries and the one it was hooked hooked up to it was dead. we hooked the ECU to the battery switch so that it had power all the time from either battery. Then we ran the motor on the Dino and noticed the belt was slipping. We stopped and tighten the belt and ran again. We tested fuel pressure on high and low pumps and both good. We ran the motor to 3500 RPM on the Dino but did not have any running issues. We checked the cap rotor and spark plugs and all are in good shape. We then took the boat to the river and river tested it we got it about 4200 RPM trimmed out. After running it for about 20 minutes the RPM started to drop and would not go over 3800 RPM trimmed out brought the boat back and pulled plugs to see if they may be fuel fouled. all the plugs are very dry and the number eight spark plugs electrode was melted and completely out of the plug. on inspection of the plug wires, one of the inside metal boots is missing and the wires just pushed back and two of the others are in bad shape. They were just old. we changed out the plug wires. we then did a compression check and this is what we found number one:125, number two:115, number three:115, number four:130, number five:120, number six:11,8 number seven:130, and number eight:100. We then put a borescope in the cylinder eight and there was no visible damage within. Took the boat back to the river with the new plugs and plug wires around the boat for about 20 minutes without issue then again lost power this time I was not able to get the power above 3200 RPM. Brought the boat back in again we found it all the plugs are in very bad shape are dry and this time number five and number seven electrodes are melted out of the plugs. We checked the base trimming and it is set at 10 and should be set at five we set the base timing back to five and stop there we called the customer and suggested that we are at the end of our knowledge."

I have no clue what the engine base trimming (was at 10, then set to 5) means. They never tested it after that.

To their credit they ran up a bill of $1500, and charged me just $800 (hard to swallow when it's worse than when you brought it in)

Lou, yes I can find a new 302 -- but everyone says my block is okay; it's the equipment ON TOP of the engine (the volvo-ization) I am told is out of whack and out of stock. They don't make parts for it anymore, so if it is the Volvo Fuel rail the island mechanic says he had to search Sweden for the replacement for the boat he was working on that I mentioned earlier. The shop in Portland told me that finding the right parts will be close to impossible because they are just not manufactured anymore -- hence they are giving up. Now, converting it to a carb. version might be the next step. But let me see if this can work, first. Hell, I replaced everything else, if it *is* a rust/fuel delivery issue and he can get the part, then I have a new boat again. If he cannot diagnose it, then I have a decision to make. Sell it as a MECHANIC SPECIAL or let the guy on the island make it his winter project to turn it into a carb. engine.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm 
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Price out what the parts and labor will be to keep the EFI, but my feeling is I would be done dealing with something that can leave you with no boating season if one little thing fails. I would do that carb conversion in a heart beat. Yep its money but money well spent because....any old school muscle car mechanic can rebuild a Holley 4bbl! and parts are everywhere! if the distributor is also a problem there are companies that make replacement stand alone marine distributors for the Ford Marine engines too. I have said this before but older boats with the first generation of EFI are a real problem due to limited demand no one will take on making those parts anymore. I seriously would not waste one more dollar on that EFI.
Look at this way, at least you are lucky that you have a Volvo SX drive instead of an OMC Cobra. Parts and techs are much easier to find. I have a collection of spare parts that I pick up on ebay to keep mine going, because it is a lot cheaper than converting to a Volvo, which I could do as well. In the garage I have:

complete spare 4.3 Cobra drive
complete spare Cobra transom mount & trim rams
Cobra Y pipe
Cobra power steering unit
Cobra trim rams, trim hoses, trim ram repair kits, o rings, etc
extra Holley 4bbl carb
spare fuel pump
spare Prestolite points distributor

Cobra parts are out there but not in such great demand so they are a bargain money wise.
To convert it to a Volvo I'd have to spend about $4500 after all is said and done, not a bad deal actually but I like the Cobra, I know how to set up the tricky shift linkage and have had good luck with them.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:51 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
ON NO! Another chapter to a bizarre story.

Conversion to Carb would cost around 5K.

I couldn't let this go just yet. I needed a real marine mechanic to look at it. So I towed it up to Orcas Island, Wa. and left it with the guy who has saved me in the past.

He pulled all the injectors and they were all good. BUT HE DID SEE AN AIR LEAK UNDER THE PLENUM. He also noticed a small oil leak at the site. He will replace the intake manifold gasket and, while he has it torn apart, is putting in refurbished injectors. He suggested that the vacuum leak would cause the gas to run lean and send wrong messages to the onboard computer. He also premised that the engine ran better while cool, but when it got hot under load the gasket would start to soften and begin the cycle of symptoms and make the engine run lean, hence the random spark plug burns. Shutting down the engine swiftly (getting to shore under idle) saved the cylinders. He went over the thorough notes the previous shop left and thought the oil leak might have been what people on board (including me early on) smelled. Does this sound plausible to you?

The First thing he thought of was that the injector temp sensor (not the one for the gage on the dash, but for the injectors system) was going bad and sending wrong info -- which might explain the lean feed and random spark plug burns. But when he saw the leak he focused on that.

He's a very thorough guy – and he has the benefit of having his shop right at a marina so he can drop the boat in test it right there. I get it in the water next Thursday…we’ll take it out for a long test. See if it holds up. Nervous time, because I don’t want to get stuck out in open water. I’ll probably have a friend in another boat with me just in case.

Mark
(I don't think I can handle another twist to this story)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:04 pm 
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Well if that was it, that would really be a win.
I’m not at all seeing how converting to a carb could cost $5000. Carb approx $650, used cast iron intake $150-200, mechanical fuel pump $100. That’s $950-1000 in parts. $4000 labor? No way! I could do that job in a couple days. Let us know how it works out. BTW I rebuilt the top end of my 4.3 for $750 in parts (a pair of reman cyl heads, gasket set, new head bolts) added a new exhaust system for $1200, rebuilt carb $50 for the kit, $85 for a new mechanical fuel pump, $175 for a new PMGR starter. Boat runs like new.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:05 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
...and for those following this epic saga...

We had a successful sea-trial last night. I still do not believe it and I am waiting for something to go wrong.

Before the trial, the marine mechanic pulled the air intake and was surprised to see the gasket in pretty good shape. But there was oil on both sides of it. He pulled the rest of the injectors and they looked okay, but we went with the refurbished injectors we bought (on E-Bay). He tested them before installing them and he said they looked and performed like they were new. He cleaned the fuel rail and then started to put it all back together, making sure the new air intake gasket was solidly secured. He said "the next guy that takes that thing off will really be working hard."

With the air intake manifold off, he did notice some places around the manifold where oil had "splashed" or "sprayed" up onto other parts of the system. He checked the oil reservoir and found it was grossly overfilled. He tried to explain to me (and I did not understand a word) about the problems of oil overfill and how oil can get into places it should not, being sucked into the intake, causing the engine to run lean. Whatever. It was another issue that he found and corrected.

We put the boat in last evening for the sea trial and she fired up nicely. We slowly motored out to open water and I put some load on the engine to bring it out of the hole and she popped out of the water like a leaping orca. Within seconds I was planed out and, with the engine at 3k rpm scooting across the Salish Sea. I had not felt power like that in years. The engine was steady. No hiccups, drops, coughs, just a smooth sound. Of course, in previous mechanics notes they ran for about 20 minutes before they lost power. We stayed on the water in various stages from trolling to acceleration to as high a speed as I felt safe (about +/- 35mph at 3800 rpm) for about 45 minutes. The boat felt like it did when we first had it new. That was many years ago. I will run a few more shorts tests (other islands are just 2-miles away) and it will be light-duty for the boat in an area where I can get help if needed. Just cannot truly believe we may have turned a corner.

The mechanic and I were talking about all the things that have been done to this boat in my search for the engine problem.
    New fuel pump
    New exhaust manifolds
    Removing the stuck flapper from the exhaust system
    New key cylinder
    New Anti-syphon valve
    New temp sensor and gauge (separate from the failing four winns gauge panel)
    Electrical / battery rewiring
    All new belts
    New spark plug wires
    Four or five sets of spark plugs (current set are NGK)
    New batteries
    New A/I gasket
    New (refurbished) injectors
    ...probably more I can't recall and I haven't even gotten to the trailer repairs I had to make...

I'll post the final report when we get back. I'll add some pictures, too.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:05 am 
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So it sounds like what you are saying is the intake plenum gasket allowed oil to get sucked into the air intake system and was fouling the fuel injectors. And if the engine was overfill with motor oil this could happen more easily. This makes sense and I have heard of something similar happening on the old style Mopar 318 and 360 Magnum engines where the plenum bottom plate would leak and pull in oil.
So that’s great news! Keep the updates coming, you have a very sharp tech there and not many are familiar with Ford marine engines esp with EFI. BTW this cannot happen with a cast iron intake and caburater set up. The intake is all one piece.
Now to avoid over filling the engine there is a trick with those dip stick tubes that you need to know. On some engines (mine included) where the dipstick tube goes to a fitting on the oil pan rather than going right into the block. With the style where it goes to a fitting on the pan the oil must rise up in that tube to the same level as in the pan. What happens is due to oil and air temp the stick will read low when you first pull it out of a just run engine. This is because the hot air inside the tube keeps the oil from rising up to the true level. However if you leave the stick out for a minute then the level will equalize and it reads correct. With a cold engine the opposite can happen, as the air above the oil in the tube cools off it pulls oil up the stick making you think it’s over full when it’s not. Either way the solution is the same leave the dipstick out for a minute and allow the oil level in the tube to equalize and then check it.
This mystery took me a while to figure out!

https://www.crowleymarine.com/johnson-e ... /56700.cfm
here's what I'm referring to.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
We got about 8-hours run-time on the meter. Anywhere from light load (2-persons) to heavy (7-persons); Trolling to up to 3800-rpm. She could have gone higher, really, but I didn't need to go there. 3800 was perfect for conditions (mostly flat, very light wake) and speed 35mph. I maintained that for a few minutes until bigger chop. Full load she rode at 3200-rpm at about 25mph. No engine hiccups. Throttle responded nicely. Engine temp anywhere from 150-170. Light load jumped out of the hole in about 5 seconds, full load took lots longer and you could hear the engine working hard, but took 20-seconds+ to plane out. If I moved heaver people to the front it was obviously a lot less.

For your enjoyment, to anyone who as followed this and my other threads through these past years looking for what was going on, here are some pix of the engine repair and sea-trial during last week's journey in the San Juan Islands, Washington.
http://www.sunriver-rental.info/fourwinns/engine1.jpg

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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