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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:43 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Exhaust/ ... _id.768639

note part # 5 which is the one way check valve
part #19 was changed for the Vortec engine design
part # 25 are the taller elbows (what they call risers are actually elbows)

my old engine is a pre-vortec so when I updated it from the old OMC one piece V6 manifolds to the 2 piece design, I used the updated part #19 in case I eventually replace this with a Vortec and at the same time I'd add new elbows with the check valve. But the pre-vortec engine does not need them because the camshaft profile is less aggressive and they are therefore less prone to reversion than the Vortecs. That's the price paid for extra horsepower, the Vortec heads and cam profile add 20-30 hp but are more prone to reversion.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a527i10hyq24 ... n.jpg?dl=0
trial fitting the center riser style exhaust system on the OMC 4.3 after installing reman heads

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xduba114xng7e ... p.JPG?dl=0
this pic shows what the sealing surface should look like, often you get leaks at the water passage between the manifold and the elbow. In this pic I have a pair of longer bolts that I cut the heads off of and cut a slot in the end, this is to line up the manifold and gasket so you don't have to hold it up with one hand while trying to get the bolts in. In case you wind up replacing yours at some point.....

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:25 pm 
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Good information.

I have problems thinking four winns and Volvo didn't get together and figure out the required riser height to minimize the issue. They don't have the volume or regulation that autos do but my gut tells me if it were a problem [riser heights] four winns would have addressed it in the 98 H200...maybe I am naïve.

In almost 9 years of ownership it this is the first time its happened...and I really think it was the dieseling that I never properly addressed more than anything else....sure letting a good friend use the boat didn't help, but while not as mechanically inclined as me, I have seen how he operates cars boats etc and he doesn't abuse them out of spite or ignorance...it was just something that happened on his watch....I'm much happier the boat gets used vs sitting in the water unloved

I think going forward I will check/adjust the timing, get new risers and inspect the Y pipe and consider adding back the flapper setup. Motor has 800+ hours on the clock of which I have put only 300 on. (no idea on previous history but no reason to believe any major work has been done. When I got the boat it had a large whip antenna and wiring for a higher end depth finder type thing so I kinda think it spend some time in the sound or at least the CT river but that's a guess)

You were more correct than I was regarding water in the oil. Repeated checks of the oil visually looked great before I got it running again. Today I did the multiple oil changes and was mildly surprised that there was the white evidence of water in the valve cover area and the original oil had a nice chocolate milk look to it. Subsequent changes looked much better and the last looked like brand new oil coming out of the motor. I am wondering if maybe I got lucky in that there was water in the motor/oil right away..... but seeing as the motor never ran after the ingestion...merely turned over maybe a handful of times it didnt get a chance to warm up and mix with the oil.[cylinders/rings/valves seeing the most water) Once I ran it for a half hour at 1500 rpm it emulsified the water/oil to what you described. Either way I won't be tearing down the motor for that but I may have dodged a bullet only getting water into the deeper recesses of the motor for 12 hours vs a month from when this happened.

She's winterized and drive pulled for the winter....gimble bearing finally sounding and feeling a bit old so will do that this off season as well. Happy if nothing else I have something to look forward to in the spring.

ImageUntitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

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Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
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untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:48 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
It sounds like you’re in good shape and I think if you get the dieseling under control you shouldn’t have continued problems. It might be a good idea to check the plugs a few times a season for water intrusion and color of the center insulator porcelain (fuel mixture)....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:00 am 
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https://www.hardin-marine.com/p-13183-3 ... apper.aspx

here's what someone on here (deafwish) used on his engine, if I remember correctly, it replaces the exhaust bellows, you can see that exhaust pressure will open it but if water rushes up against the transom it will snap shut. If your drive is off now you can install it over the winter. If the OE flappers were removed this might be a good solution. I think you need a snap ring pliers to get the tail end of the exhaust bellows off. This might make a bit more noise but having something that will prevent back wash from traveling up the Y pipe is reassuring. I would measure the flange of the exhaust opening in the gimble housing first before ordering.

I'm not sure about the Volvo exhaust bellows but on the OMC Cobra one, its all open on the bottom side so water can flow freely back in, they did it this way to reduce back pressure but they had the flappers on the tops of each side of the Y pipe to deal with water rushing in, maybe this would work better.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:30 pm 
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I like that idea better than digging into the y pipes...and as they say...its pilot priced..thanks for sharing...

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Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
Image
untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:27 am 
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Also even though I know you don't want to get into removing the exhaust elbows, pull your spark plugs a few times a season, and look at the center electrodes for any sign of water (corrosion). I have heard that manifolds & elbows last nearly forever in fresh water regions, as long as there are not high concentrations of dissolved minerals in the water, so it may not be an issue, BUT, if you see any sign of rust trails around the joint between the elbow and the manifold, then you have to take it apart because water is likely to be leaking inside too. What happens is that water gets under the gasket and corrodes the sealing surfaces and with repeated expansion/contraction cycles it starts leaking. VP in fact re-vised their gaskets several times because of this.
When I did mine I used the thick composite Barr gaskets & coated everything in Permatex Aviation sealer and after 3 years so far so good. I'll take off the elbows after 5 years to inspect, I might just take the parts down to my machine shop (SK Speed Shop in Lindenhurst, Long Island, aka hot rod heaven) and get them decked as long as they pass the acetone test.

So if you find that they are starting to leak, but internally the cooling ports are not flaking rust, you can do the same thing to save money. Take the manifolds & elbows to a machine shop and have them decked (sanded on huge deck sander) so the sealing surfaces are clean and totally flat, then re-assemble with the latest VP gaskets, (they recommend using a spray on copper based sealer). At the same time you can see if your engine has the flappers or not. Sealing surfaces should be flat and level to less than .002", measure with a straight edge and feeler gauges.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:00 am 
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Thanks Lou, got sidetracked blowing out my irrigation the night before first deeper freeze of the year.

I'm actually not too opposed to taking off the risers/manifolds just not interested in going down another rabbit hole of broken bolts and such. Like you said compared to the other cars I work on these things are cheap... I can't afford my own labor but do take payment in beer so it works out for everyone.

I wish I knew the history of the motor and boat, I mean realistically its my history with 8 years and a few hundred hours on the motor. But when I got it the wiring for a higher end fish finder was in, a HUGE whip antenna, mounts for a marine radio etc, makes me suspect it went out on LI sounds a few times....sticker from dealer was up in Windsor CT so that doesn't really fit. If it was a salt water boat I assume everything had been replaced once...fresh I don't know.. I initially assumed my starter could not be original but the way the paint flaked off it and its appearance makes me wonder. Which all brings me wondering on the age of the rest of the time replaceable parts. While there are no outside signs of problems and previous to this the plugs looked a little rich if anything.

Biggest first world problem is space, wife not a boat fan to start with and looking at this ugly thing for the last month in the driveway hasn't helped, and once I put the winter cover on it I won't be working on it, and I resist even walking across the grass to climb into the damn thing in the spring :) That said I do think it makes sense at a minimum to do the risers and get a good look at everything associated with that, I will keep a closer eye on the plugs as well but the sunbench seating makes it a royal pain to get around there, its gotten to the point I pull it out almost every time I need to do more than check the oil.

I am thrilled I was able to get it running and knowing how much effort I put into getting just one bolt out makes me both wanting to do more preventative stuff while at the same time dreading what I see when lifting the covers. But I do know if I am going to be comfortable taking it out on Lake George again next summer it needs to be running confidently.

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
Image
untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:45 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
I know what you mean about broken bolts. When I did my top end overhaul, I held my breath taking out the cyl head bolts (13 bolts per cyl head) they would not budge with an 18” 1/2” drive ratchet. So I pulled out my DeWalt 18V impact gun and cranked on them and they all came out. I didn’t break one bolt on that project and that’s an engine used in salt water 18 years.
Suggestion:
If you decide to take the exhaust apart warm the engine up first, carefully drain the manifolds (hot water!) then use an impact gun to loosen the bolts. The heat and hammering of the impact helps vs cold engine and constant pull with a ratchet. Always drain before breaking loose the elbows.
Then when replacing them you can use marine anti seize on the bolts and the newer style VP gaskets and their recommended sealer. If you need to replace the exhaust you can use Barr aftermarket instead of Volvo OE, much cheaper and good quality.
I know what you mean about wives and old boats in the driveway. Mine feels the same lol! But, she realizes it helped me keep my sanity during the summer of Covid just like the in ground pool did (her idea, could have bought 2 boats for what we spent on that project)!

PS I reconfigured the rear seating in this boat to make maintenance easier, replaced that big heavy bench seat with 2 smaller 36” wide pontoon benches. I cut the wood bulkhead in half vertically and installed a take apart hinge to allow it to open like a door. Much easier! Did this about 15 years ago...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qcrv9e5b579ub ... l.JPG?dl=0

In this pic you can see the 2 benches, what I do is lift out the top cushions, then I have rope handles I made up to lift out the bottom sections (usually only have to lift out the port side seat). Then the wood bulkhead behind them is cut in half vertically, I unscrew it from the divider panel in the engine compartment and just lift it out. Then I can get in and do most of what I have to do, for oil changes and winterizing etc. For bigger jobs it all comes out. This made the boat easier to service but kept the seating and storage below the seat bottoms.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pz3pzuz8kuvm ... s.jpg?dl=0

this shows how I made the seats and bulkheads easier to remove, the small dividers are secured with bolts and wing nuts, the large bulkhead has a hinge in the middle, that can open like a door and be lifted off, or the whole thing can be removed. The seats are basically a press fit, I had to cut the wood shelf under the coaming panel for them to fit, they just drop into place. Much lighter than what F/W had there originally. The way I use the boat now, I am usually the only one on it, I might eventually get rid of the seats altogether and attach a pair of flip up seats on the front side of those bulkheads but I like the storage underneath so I kept them.

I agree conventional consumer market boats are horrible to work on. The new ones are even worse with the walk through taking away 1/4th of the engine compartment width making a starter change a horror show (they mostly put them on the same side with the starter, if they actually looked at a GM marine inboard they'd have put it on the OTHER side!) and non-removable fiberglass all round the engine.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
PS I pulled our boat out this weekend, and took some measurements of the static water line & how high above that the tops of the exhaust elbows are. What I came up with was 15"-16", which is good as far as both Merc's and Volvo's specs. So if yours is the same, then no worries about the elbows being too low, as long as you fix the dieseling and I might fit that flapper on the gimble housing as an extra safety step.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 6:08 am 
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To tie up the knot for anyone searching in the future,

Boat is in the water running well. While I still don't know if I *correctly* adjusted the timing, I did move it a bit. The Seloc manual is a bit all over the place and poorly written. But the 4.3GL has two settings one for 89 octane and one for 87, I didn't have a secondary tach (manual indicates instrument cluster not accurate enough) and the fuel dock didn't answer the phone when I called to ask the octane. In the past I think they said 89 but not sure if I buy it. Anyways set it for 87 and no dieseling or pinging on the water, though it hasn't been put under load yet towing anyone.

Oil looks great and all in all I think the engine dodged this bullet...now on to the 23 year old interior.

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
Image
untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: VP 4.3GL sick motor
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:34 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
jontmiller wrote:
To tie up the knot for anyone searching in the future,

Boat is in the water running well. While I still don't know if I *correctly* adjusted the timing, I did move it a bit. The Seloc manual is a bit all over the place and poorly written. But the 4.3GL has two settings one for 89 octane and one for 87, I didn't have a secondary tach (manual indicates instrument cluster not accurate enough) and the fuel dock didn't answer the phone when I called to ask the octane. In the past I think they said 89 but not sure if I buy it. Anyways set it for 87 and no dieseling or pinging on the water, though it hasn't been put under load yet towing anyone.

Oil looks great and all in all I think the engine dodged this bullet...now on to the 23 year old interior.


great job and glad it's running well!
As far as timing, what I got from my old OMC specs with the earlier pre vortec engine (points distributor, mechanical spark advance like the cars I grew up with) is regular fuel, 1* BTDC, premium 6* BTDC. I have always used 6* BTDC and used at least 89 if not 91 or 93 octane gas.
Here's tip, if you use a timing light and it's an advance light that uses a dial to allow you to check total timing advance (like mine) when setting base timing, make sure that the dial is set on zero, or else your timing setting will be retarded by whatever # the dial is on. A couple of times I have checked the timing (and with a points system if the dwell angle does not change, neither should timing) and gotten a way retarded reading, what happened was that dial got bumped and gave an erronous reading. Put on zero and I'm back to 6*BTDC. These advance lights are good when you want to make sure that the spark advance is working, you put the boat in the water, hook up the light, set the throttle at the spec to measure advance (usually 3000-3500 rpm) and set the dial on whatever your base+timing advance is supposed to be. Then aim it at the timing marks pull the trigger and it should read zero. So on my engine I have 6*base timing and 12* advance at 3200 rpm, for a total of 18*. So I set the dial on that and at 3200 rpm it will read zero. The electronics in the light take the total advance into account.

I have heard that setting the base timing on the new Delco EST system is tricky, I haven't had a boat new enough to have that so I'm not familiar with it yet....maybe if I ever get a new engine then I'll learn it. For now I'm happy with my 1966 technology.

PS when I did my interior over I used Wise marine seats, for the front helm seats and for the rear seat I used a pair of their 37" wide pontoon bench seats. What's good about having a split rear seat is that you can remove them easily (or just one side) to do pain in the neck jobs like changing a starter or standard mount oil filter. The big bench seat in these boats weighs a ton and I changed this about 14 years ago I could not stand moving that damn heavy bench seat.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ao7q5x2adv5z0 ... p.JPG?dl=0
Here's a pic...I made the bulkhead behind the seat in 2 halves, and it's hinged in the middle and can be taken apart. Much easier to deal with than the silly set up the boat companies stick you with.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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