www.iFourWinns.com

cross posted to the engine forum for looks

Well my luck finally ran out after 8 years or so with my boat....here's the story.

I let my friend use the boat whenever he wants and while it happened on his watch I am pretty sure it could have happened to me. Only thing I wish is I could have been there to understand a few more of the symptoms leading up to the failure.

He had been cruising the lake stopping and starting a few times just admiring the leaves late season. Last stop he turned off the motor without pulling it out of gear ... not the way I would have done it but I have done it that way as well. sounded like it dieseled quite a bit (running on) then shut off. 20 minutes later no start...said it would turn and stop sounding like a dead battery....was close to the dock and got towed in.

I went to boat 2 days later and it would turn over followed by a loud metallic clunk and stoppage of engine...I felt the flywheel/starter was the issue. oil was clean and no obvious external engine damage or leaks noted

Pulled the plugs today and rotated motor by hand, water came out of a few cylinders, others smelled of raw fuel and were wet....the starter is actually broken (see photo) suspect the torque from attempting a start after it was locked caused that..

So I don't really know all the systems of hydro-lock but it sure seems like thats what happened. Questions are where to go now.

I figure best case scenario water came in after stopping the boat. Worst case water getting in through manifold/gasket. The boat has not been overheated and was running pretty darn good prior to this.

I think a compression test to rule out any major cylinder damage...with clean oil I am fairly confident I may be ok there. I fogged all cylinders and pulled the engine through again to try and get rid of any moisture...I doubt I will run the motor this year which concerns me a bit..time will tell if I can get it back together and run it before winterizing.

To top it all off and what sounds like the most troubling issue is I broke a $#)!T%@ starter bolt removing the starter. I will research some videos and such but that seems like it will be a royal pita to remove the stud.....I heated it up and took my time knowing it was a problem and still F'd it up...argh. flywheel looks good as well.

Thanks for reading my ramble....open to all thoughts and opinions.

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

Sorry to hear about that! Most of us have had something like that happen sooner or later. Mine was a bad overheat followed by 3 seasons of running fine and then blowing both head gaskets at the end of the 3rd season (2016). I had a bit of water in one cyl and just a tiny bit in the other. Lucky it did not hydrolock. I pickled the engine to prevent rust and took off the intake and cyl heads over the winter. Got the heads magnafluxed and found both had cracks from the overheat. Also the cooling passages were getting thin from years of raw water cooling. Machine shop recommended replacing the heads with reman cyl heads so that’s what I did; and updated it to center riser Volvo style exhaust. I did this in the spring and summer of 2017 and it’s been fine since. Original short block is from 1988, 32 years old!
In your case the challenge is getting that starter bolt out. Because of the location it’s a tough job. You might actually be better off taking it to a shop unless you can get it out with a vise grips. To save the motor you need to get it running as soon as possible and run it long enough to do 2/3 oil changes to get the water out of the oil. If it sits like that all the bearings will corrode and you’re looking at a reman engine. I’d try to get the bolt out but if it’s not coming think about taking it to a shop. The other thing is hydrolock can bend connecting rods; then you’re back to needing a-reman engine. Best thing is get the starter issue solved; get the water out and then see what you have. When I did mine it was the first major engine repair I ever did. Learned a lot!

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

so you would argue there is water in oil regardless of how the oil 'looks' Don't disagree really...hard to believe there wouldnt be any water in there but is there any acceptable amount?

From what I can tell the starter bolt is recessed into the receiving hole ....... dunno if that makes it harder or easier but your right its in a terrible place. What kind of shop might one approach for that? Assume a marine or auto shop, we have a few around town that appear to do boat winterizations on the side but I bet they're booked up pretty good.

<<sigh>>

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

Well you might not have as much water in the oil as I did (and mine was salt water) but its still a concern. A Hydrolock bad enough to break the starter is a lot of water, and it gets past the rings and into the oil. Look under the valve cover, do you see something that looks like mayo in there, cold engine stick a finger in and check. If there's mayo in there gotta get on it. It doesn't always show up on the dipstick right away. For the starter issue, you might have to get a shop to pull the engine, get the bolt removed, do any other work that's easy to do with the engine out, then re-install. It is 22 years old doesn't owe you anything, right?
PS when you replace the starter make sure to use the correct bolts or that will possibly happen again. I installed a PMGR Arco starter on mine this year and had to buy their special (knurled) bolts they have to be torqued to 30 ft lbs. Not easy to do but that's what the job requires. If someone replaced the starter at some point and did not check to see if the bolts were the right size that could have contributed to the breakage. Different aftermarket starters may have slightly different housing dimensions. If the bolts just slightly too long they can bottom out and you think the starter is tight but is not 100%.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qp6hhgrn012gn ... o.bmp?dl=0
pic is a little blurry but you get the idea. if you see this under the valve cover you have to act fast, or in the spring its going to be new/reman engine time.

PS when it dieseled, what happens is the exhaust pulses actually pull water up the exhaust, now Volvo used a one way check valve in the exhaust elbow to eliminate vacuum in the exhaust (this became a bigger issue when GM went to the Vortec head design and slightly more aggressive cam profile, it was not a problem on the older models) but if he slowed down fast the wave of water that comes up against transom + dieseling may have caused that to happen. The older models of the SX series used flappers at the top of the Y pipe that were designed to prevent this, Volvo felt that they were not effective and dropped them from '99 on, and recommended removing them. I never agreed with them and still have the flappers in my OMC (Volvo simply used OMC's design, transom mount etc). To me this was a fault in their design process, not sure if yours has them but you wouldn't know unless you removed the exhaust elbows and looked. Other things that encourage dieseling are a lean fuel mixture and idle speed too high.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Thanks for taking the time as always Lou

I really don't think there is too much water in there....though I agree with your premise that SOME had to get in regardless of how the oil looks.

the info on dieseling makes sense....the boat has done it with low octane gas for many seasons...realizing octane booster was a probably a lazy mans workaround it worked right up until it didn't

The starter actually appears orginal....at least the paint flaking off matches the engine. So I can't blame the bolt on that....

I called one shop today who flatly stated the motor needed to be pulled to repair a starter bolt.(and if water was in the motor why bother was his point...motor already toast which i don't believe) ...while I don't doubt thats what I would do if I ran a shop....i' not quite ready for that yet. Honestly I am at the point if I have to pull to motor I will give the boat away to a friend or nemesis that wants a project....I just don't want to do it even though I suspect I could.

Today I tore apart the starter....I am loosely planning on using the starter bolt frame holes as a guide (I have one good bolt hole) to drill out the broken bolt with a right angle drill.. Need to get some left hand drill bits but if I can fashion some grommets or sleeves of some sort using the starter shell to keep the bit straight I think I have a pretty fair shot of drilling it out even upside down and blind (suggestions welcome how to make this actually work)

Pulling the motor sounds like a reasonable winter project to redo the top end....I vacillate terribly on how I want to handle it. I am NOT gonna spend 2500 to have the previously mentioned shop pull the motor....but like you said I sure would learn alot about motors by building an A-frame and pulling the motor myself....good time of year at least.

<<heavy sigh>>

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

I have heard of people doing it that way, right angle drill, in reverse with left hand bit, that alone may spin it out. BUT, the key is to use a good sharp punch to start your hole dead center. There is something called a transfer punch that can help you with making a dead center punch mark in a situation like this, I bought a set for a project I am working on:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AD ... UTF8&psc=1

Now I have had a lot of experience with the GM 4.3 V6 over the years and I have found them to be tough, durable engines that can take a beating and they are simple to take apart, parts are cheap and available, very do it yourselfer friendly. Since your engine did not overheat, that's good, probably its OK you really just want to get the water out of the motor oil as soon as possible.
There are some very good mechanics over at iboats, you might try asking for tips on getting this bolt out over there.
I've replaced the starter in my '88 3 times, access isn't terrible, but getting a drill up in there, is not easy. First one was just an old starter, second one got trashed by salt water when a cooling hose popped off and overheated the engine (leading to the eventual top end overhaul) third one was just recently when starter #2 started dragging from age. I put in an ARCO PMGR starter and it cranks over like a new vehicle.
BTW my engine has never dieseled but I always use at least 89 octane gas, to avoid detonation which happens with marine engines under constant load. When I buy gas at the 2 local gas docks the only grade they sell is 93. So in the future I suggest using at least 89 no matter what VP said, because as engines get older their octane needs increase due to carbon build up.

GOOD LUCK!!
PS I was able to remove all the cyl head bolts, on this engine used in salt water without breaking one bolt using an impact gun.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I have heard of people doing it that way, right angle drill, in reverse with left hand bit, that alone may spin it out. BUT, the key is to use a good sharp punch to start your hole dead center. There is something called a transfer punch that can help you with making a dead center punch mark in a situation like this, I bought a set for a project I am working on:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AD ... UTF8&psc=1

this can be used to keep the drill bit at 90* to the surface of the block...a drill guide....
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0061 ... UTF8&psc=1

Now I have had a lot of experience with the GM 4.3 V6 over the years and I have found them to be tough, durable engines that can take a beating and they are simple to take apart, parts are cheap and available, very do it yourselfer friendly. Since your engine did not overheat, that's good, probably its OK you really just want to get the water out of the motor oil as soon as possible.
There are some very good mechanics over at iboats, you might try asking for tips on getting this bolt out over there.
I've replaced the starter in my '88 3 times, access isn't terrible, but getting a drill up in there, is not easy. First one was just an old starter, second one got trashed by salt water when a cooling hose popped off and overheated the engine (leading to the eventual top end overhaul) third one was just recently when starter #2 started dragging from age. I put in an ARCO PMGR starter and it cranks over like a new vehicle.
BTW my engine has never dieseled but I always use at least 89 octane gas, to avoid detonation which happens with marine engines under constant load. When I buy gas at the 2 local gas docks the only grade they sell is 93. So in the future I suggest using at least 89 no matter what VP said, because as engines get older their octane needs increase due to carbon build up.

GOOD LUCK!!
PS I was able to remove all the cyl head bolts, on this engine used in salt water without breaking one bolt using an impact gun.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Thanks...

i was able to fashion some sleeves into the old starter casing to help keep a bit straight, I don't think the broken bolt is recessed enough to allow that offset punch but its a great idea...I was considering using a pointed grinding bit to grind out a natural low spot in the offending bolt..using the engine block as the centering guide then using my starter gizmo bit setup....will report any progress or failure too anyone interested

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

I think using the original starter mount may work, because you can bolt up the side that has the good bolt on it and that will help align the side that you have to drill. I have a De Walt right angle drill, these are not expensive and can fit in limited space situations. Use mirrors, bright led lights, say prayers, etc!
I might even see if you can cut away the rest of the starter from the mount with a hacksaw, leaving just the mounting area to give more room for the drill. Let us know what happens.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Because I know everyone was losing sleep over this....and maybe it will help someone searching in the future.

After about $40 worth of drill bits, a tight quarter right angle drill, time and a whole lot of swear words I have been successful in drilling out the broken bolt and installing the new starter.

The old starter housing was the key and I really don't think I could have done it without that. The only sleeves I could find locally were as small as a 9/16 bit...if I could have gone smaller if may have gone a bit faster. Biggest pain was being able to get any force / pressure on the drill, ended up having to use a claw hammer as a lever to pull up the drill, which put a little sideways force on it making one of the soft aluminum sleeves spin. I ended up getting it just a C-hair off center. once using smaller bits till I felt I was as close to the side wall as I could be I ended up using a tap to clean out all the old material. I don't think I got it 100% square as I had problems getting both new bolts started...and once going they were snugger than they should have been (I think like i said the hole was a bit off center of the original)

Only thing I took for granted was the starter wiring as I didnt really know what went wear but eventually got that figured out.

Engine started nicely and ran it for 25 minutes....heading out for some cheap oil and such....will change oil a few times then put her away for the season.

Thanks Lou for your interest and suggestions......photos mostly for bragging rights.

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

hole before tapping

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

Untitled by Jon Miller, on Flickr

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

Awesome! I kept checking to see what happened, man that is a tough job and you did great! Looks like you had just enough room to get the drill up in there. A suggestion, for the threads in the block a thread chaser works well and it won't cut into the existing threads like a tap can. But maybe you had to use a tap in this case, due to the drilling. Just make sure those bolts are tight (30 ft lbs) you don't want the starter moving because that's how they break. Now you can get it good and warmed up and change the oil till its clean. Might take a few times. Resourcefulness saved the day!
I think using the old starter housing made all the difference.
After you get it good and warm, etc pull the plugs and look at the electrodes, you want to see if you've been getting water intrusion more than just that one time. Corroded electrodes and an orange cast on the porcelain insulator are a tip off that water's been getting in.
As far as the cause, make sure it's not running too lean, idle speed not too high, check to make sure the heat range on the plugs is correct, plugs of too hot a heat range can cause this too.
I'd start using at least 89 octane gas as well, in 18 years my old 4.3 had never dieseled.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I am mostly concerned about this happening again. I am borrowing a timing light and will be curious if its very far off. The plugs are new last year and for what its worth ar VP labeled plugs so I can only assume they are correct, The marina supposedly sells 89 but it definitely runs better when I full it up with 93. I have been putting in octane booster to help but miss it hear and there. Regardless I have read stories about hydo-locking engines in all sorts of conditions which seems concerning. I would like to find the list of best practices to prevent it.

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

The bigger issue is water intrusion via the exhaust system because it’s a water cooled system. In this case the cause was dieseling but you can have water intrusion without dieseling. The reason why dieseling causes water intrusion is that when an engine diesels it is running without ignition for a few seconds and when it finally stops it actually can run backwards for a half turn or so and this is what sucked the water in.
Causes of dieseling:
Fuel octane too low
Idle too high
Lean fuel mix
Heavy carbon build up due to engine running too cold (thermostat stuck open) and/or stuck choke not opening—- we actually had this on a used car we had many years ago (1970 Ford Torino, 302 cu in, 2bbl carb). The choke wouldn’t open up, it had carbon build up and it pinged and dieseled. I had to retard the timing to get it not to ping on even premium gas. Finally fixed the choke and got the carbon out with GM top engine cleaner; chunks of carbon blew out the exhaust when I did this! After that much better.
Water intrusion not caused by dieseling...
Leaky manifold to elbow gaskets
Manifold or elbow rusted through
Missing exhaust flappers (although Volvo said to remove them on these models)
Exhaust elbows too low relative to the static water line of the boat—the tips of the elbows should be 13” above the static water line. They do make taller elbows to correct this.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

From that list of symptoms only question marks I have is fuel mixture. Can one eyeball the mixture adjustments? (I am familiar with recip aircraft engines that we adjust the mixture all the time but also use an Exhaust Temp gauge to fine tune it. When running on marina fuel I can hear it ping under acceleration. It brings me back to the timing being a hair off. These older motors don't have a knock sensor nor can they retard the timing on their own correct?

The plugs were a mess this time but they also were full of unspent fuel and water.

To your knowledge flappers were removed as a melting hazard that would lead to exhaust back pressure? I don't know if mine are still there or not but would that have kept water intrusion out in a sucking situation? I kind of doubt it.

_________________
Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT

untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr

just typed up a long diatribe but lost it due to waiting too long to post it...
to summarize:

check base timing and if possible full timing advance at the specified rpm. You have electronic ignition so you may have to put it in base timing mode to set the base timing. Mine has the old points distributor so its simpler with mechanical advance (flyweights and springs). My base is 6*BTDC, with 12* of centrifugal advance at 3200 rpm for a total of 18*. OMC in their owners manual said that if you used regular gas the timing should be retarded slightly back to 1* BTDC. I always ran mine on at least 89 if not 93 octane and used 6*. Never had pinging, and when I took the cyl heads off to repair the blown HGs 3 years ago, no sign of burning on either valves or piston tops.

You have the newer Vortec cyl head design, these due to the cam profile are a bit more prone to exhaust reversion, to combat this OMC and Volvo redesigned the exhaust pipes that connect the elbows to the Y pipe, made the angle sharper so the water would have a harder time climbing up the pipe due to vacuum in the exhaust system caused by valve overlap (cam profile). They also added one way check valves screwed into the exhaust elbows. What they do, is allow air into the exhaust system if vacuum develops to prevent reversion. If they fail they can allow exhaust out of the valve, you'd smell it in the engine compartment most likely. I would check this, and also I would want to see if the exhaust flappers are in place. I don't agree with Volvo's recommendation to remove them, and I'll explain more below as to why...
If yours are missing VP does not sell them anymore but OMC and aftermarket suppliers still do. I used them all this time and never had water up the exhaust system even boating in rough conditions in Long Island Sound...over 18 years worth...

Next factor: static water line. This is a measurement of how high up the water line inside the Y pipe is. You want the tops of the exhaust elbows to be at least 13"higher than that, to prevent water from being able to rush up the exhaust when you slow down fast. To measure, get a piece of wood long enough to span and overhang the gunnels and a tape measure. Put the boat in the water, put the wood right over the elbows on the gunnels. Measure down from the wood to the water line outside the boat, and now measure down from the wood to the tops of the elbows. Elbows should be at least 13" higher than the water line. If not VP does sell taller risers.

Why I disagree with them about removing the flappers:
1) I had them on my OMC engine, never had water up the exhaust, only time I had to replace them was due to an overheat.
2) Merc still uses flappers on their engines
3) without first measuring the static water line removing them is risky, if your elbows are too low then you might right be right on the verge of risking water intrusion with nothing to stop it. I feel they should have instructed owners/repair shops to first measure the static water line, if marginal then fit taller elbows, or a spacer.

about the fuel mix issue, you can run it on the lake with new clean plugs in it and then look at the center electrode porcelain insulator, should be tan/grey, not blistered white.
Which carb do you have? Holly 2bbl or 4bbl? They are not hard to rebuild. I have a 4bbl Quadrajet, its is a bit more complex but is an excellent carb.

I would probably over the winter think about taking off the elbows and manifolds, checking for flappers and if they look questionable, replacing the whole exhaust system if the sealing surfaces are corroded/pitted because this alone will let water in. It will drip down into the center exhaust passage and into a cyl via an open exhaust valve. This will eventually cause low compression. Here in salt water we replace at least the elbows if not the whole system, every 5-7 years. You see any rust trails from the joint between the manifold & elbow? That's a sign it might be leaking in....

there are basically 3 ways water gets in a cyl....
1) exhaust reversion...this is vacuum sucking water up the exhaust pipe, due to cam profile design, this cam happen even when not slowing down fast but from extended low speed idling....not enough exhaust pressure to push the water out...
2) elbows too low, this is because the static water line is too high relative to the height of the elbows....this is a likely cause when you stop fast and then hydrolock
3) leaky gasket between the elbows and manifold, VP had problems with this as did Merc and OMC, VP changed the gaskets several times to improve sealing, Merc re-designed their system to the newer dry joint system to avoid this problem.

#1 & #2 can cause hydrolock, #3 not so much, but will cause engine damage over time, if not corrected.

dieseling ..... what happened with yours, falls into the reversion category, but stopping fast and dieseling makes it much more likely that water will come up the exhaust because when the engine diesels, it is running without ignition for a few secs, and then when it quits it can actually turn backwards which is what pulls in the water. That, combined with water coming up the Y pipe, no flappers, maybe elbows just a bit low...and there you have it. ...

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II