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Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
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Author:  Teacher Todd [ Sat May 29, 2010 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Hey everyone, I have been thinking about converting to fuel injection. I have been looking at the Holley TBI Marine kit. It is expensive but I am having issues with the 3000 feet in elevation changes of the lakes I regularly boat in. Also would be nice to have the reliability of fuel injection. I know that a well set up carb will run as good as fuel injection, but I am not comfortable with it. I guess I am looking for reasons not to do this. The boat is paid for and I love the space in the older boats. Here is the system. What are your thoughts? Price for the TBI is $1079.95.

Boat Specs
1988 Four Winns Horizon 200
OMC 5.7liter Cobra

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-700-21/

Image

Thanks as Always,

Todd
Author:  230 Mike [ Sat May 29, 2010 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
I like your reasoning for doing it. Do you know how many hours are on the engine (i.e., are you going to have to re-power in 3 years anyway, etc.)? If the boat is paid for, in good shape such that you don't expect any major expenses in the near future, then I can't see why not.

Do you have to replace the fuel pump, and if so will it get into tank replacement?

I also think this would be a very cool project to document on the forum with lots of pics, hint hint. :wink:
Author:  Teacher Todd [ Sun May 30, 2010 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Mike, the block was replaced 2 years ago when the previous owner let it freeze. I am not sure on the fuel pump. I have an email in to summit racing to try and learn more so we will see. I will do a write up for sure with lots of pics. :mrgreen:
Author:  powellcrazy [ Mon May 31, 2010 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
I considered that set up on my last boat, then just decided that I would hold off and save money to put into next boat.

Fuel injection is very nice when boating at lakes that vary in elevation,
1200' Lake Mead
3700' Lake Powell
4300' Lakes around home
6700' Lakes we go to our mountains

But really the only big, noticeable difference, is the ease of starting.

Is is really worth the $1200 and head ache of install for the minimal benefit. $1200 will buy a lot of toys or gas.......
Good luck, if you do it, will be interested in your install and what you think about any performance enhancements.
Author:  LouC [ Mon May 31, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Well if it's as good as FI is in most of the cars I have had, then I'd say it may be worth it IF you can find someone to trouble shoot it if you have problems...otherwise you're on your own...I bet cities that have hot rod shops would have people familiar with these systems but think of it this way if you had a problem you couldn't figure out where would you find a mechanic who knows this system? I think for that reason alone I'd stay with the Quadrajet....
I'm guessing the issue is that as you go up in elevation the air is less dense and atomspheric pressure is less so if the jetting and mixture are OK at sea level then at altitude it may be too rich, I wonder if you could re-jet it a bit leaner to compensate. You would need to find a good tech who can set up the Quadrajet for high altitude operation. I wonder if running E-10 gas would help since by its nature it tends to lean out the fuel mixture....

Here we are at sea level so it's a non issue...but the salt water is a constant mantenance issue....if it's not one thing it's another....
Author:  Teacher Todd [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
powellcrazy wrote:

Is is really worth the $1200 and head ache of install for the minimal benefit. $1200 will buy a lot of toys or gas.......
Good luck, if you do it, will be interested in your install and what you think about any performance enhancements.


That is the real question. This boat came out of Vegas and was jetted for mead. I have been trying to get it tuned for here and they have problems with getting a decent tune for all lakes. I don't plan on getting a new boat unless it was for fuel injection so I am stuck trying to decide which way to go.
Author:  Teacher Todd [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
LouC wrote:
Well if it's as good as FI is in most of the cars I have had, then I'd say it may be worth it IF you can find someone to trouble shoot it if you have problems...otherwise you're on your own...I bet cities that have hot rod shops would have people familiar with these systems but think of it this way if you had a problem you couldn't figure out where would you find a mechanic who knows this system? I think for that reason alone I'd stay with the Quadrajet....
I'm guessing the issue is that as you go up in elevation the air is less dense and atomspheric pressure is less so if the jetting and mixture are OK at sea level then at altitude it may be too rich, I wonder if you could re-jet it a bit leaner to compensate. You would need to find a good tech who can set up the Quadrajet for high altitude operation. I wonder if running E-10 gas would help since by its nature it tends to lean out the fuel mixture....

Here we are at sea level so it's a non issue...but the salt water is a constant mantenance issue....if it's not one thing it's another....



Lou, it is much simpler for me to deal with the tbi. The issue is the boat needs to be rejetted at each of the different lakes, and I have no clue on doing this and we may drop or go up 3000 feet in a weekend. Is it worth a 1000.00 I am not sure. I will wait and see what I think of the system when I go to summit racings warehouse in a few weeks. It seems like an easy 2-3 hour install, but not sure.
Author:  gregs [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Todd, I'd be hard pressed to own anything with a carb on it again. I love fuel injection. If it were my boat and your money I'd make the swap! So the fact that it is your boat makes it an even better deal for you!

Greg
Author:  LouC [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
I'd also contact Holley and make sure you can buy those components individually in case you ever need something...but as noted...FI is really reliable...runs great all the time...etc...

I'd keep the Q-Jet around tho if you ever sell the boat the new owner may want it...BTW....had to get mine rebuilt...started flooding out and leaked gas on the manifold...$125 for a rebuild from my very good boat mechanic...put it back on in 15 min and back in business....but we are sea level boaters...no issue with altitude compensation....
Author:  Sounder [ Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
It looks like it's designed for marine use, so no issues with putting it into a marine environment. I'd say go for it. I think it would be worth not worrying about carb tuning, jets, flooding, and everything else that goes with a carb.

On my street rod, I thought about the same thing, and ended up with the carb. But the reason was the cost. The nice injector setup would have cost me several thousand, and I already have enough dough in that car. On the other hand, looking at this setup, maybe I'll reconsider my choice.

If you do this, I want to hear how the install goes, and how it turns out!
Author:  Teacher Todd [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Thank you all for your thoughts and ideas. I have a few more calls to make, but it looks like it is a go. I will do a write up on it and my thoughts when I get done. Still a couple weeks away from ordering. To much going on the next two weeks to tackle this project.
Author:  LouC [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
One last thought...
Keeping in mind that with a dog clutch drive...in order for it to shift right...two things are important as far as engine management systems go...one is that the engine needs to idle as slowly as possible to make shifting into gear and out of gear easy and not hard on the dog clutch...that means that it has to be able to idle at about 600 rpm in gear in the water...the other is that the ESA system (electronic shift assist) must be functional to get it to shift to neutral. The way it works is that when you shift to neutral...the shift linkage 'senses' the load on cable from the prop in the water...the ESA microswitch engages...and cuts the ignition to half the cylinders to lower the engine idle...so...even though you are keeping the standard ignition...if you can't get the FI system to idle slow enough...and if the ESA can't lower the idle when shifting to neutral...you might have a great running engine but a bad shifting drive...

I'd call Holly's tech support and ask these questions...
Author:  Jim_R [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
Yeah, I'll never forget taking a van tuned for Chicago up to the Continental Divide, and half way there pulling the dog house off the engine, and advancing the distributor - without stopping. Fuel injection is great, no question. But given the servicing concerns raised and Lou C's shifting question, you might be better off investing in some tuning equipment and learning how to adjust your boat's tune for altitude once it gets there. We're talking adjusting timing and not re-jetting the carb, right?
Author:  gregs [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thinking about converting to Fuel Injection
I still think it would be a great addition to your boat. Here is the url for the installation instructions:
http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Tec ... 0028-1.pdf

Here is reference to the factory shift interrupt at the end of this section:

8.3 Throttle Connections
NOTE: Some applications originally equipped with a Quadra-Jet carburetor may require the use of Holley’s throttle cable
bracket P/N 717-6.
NOTE: Mercruiser applications will require the throttle cable bracket P/N 717-6 and Holley's linkage adapter P/N 717-7. Install
the bracket along with the proper gaskets between the manifold and the adapter plate.
NOTE: Throttle extension bracket must also be used when the TBI is mounted over the secondary bores on stock small block
Chevrolet manifolds. Mount this to the 717-6 bracket using the two nuts and bolts that are provided. Or when the old
throttle lever arm is significantly longer then the Pro-Jection throttle lever arm. See step 2.
1. Remove any studs or brackets that are on the carburetor throttle lever and transfer them over to the lever of the TBI in the
same relative location. Connect the throttle cable to the lever using the original equipment hardware. If Using the Holley
717-6 and/or 717-7 throttle linkage kits. Follow the instructions that come with these kits. In some cases it will require the
use of the throttle lever extension brackets. Step two outlines the procedure for using the throttle lever extension bracket.
2. Measure the length of the throttle lever arm on the carburetor removed from the boat. Compare the length of the existing
throttle lever arm with the one on the PRO-JECTION throttle body. If the two throttle lever arms are similar in length (within
1/2” of each other), the throttle lever arm hole on the PRO-JECTION throttle body can be used without the extension
bracket. Use the throttle lever arm extension bracket if the old throttle lever arm is significantly longer than the PROJECTION
throttle lever arm. Before installation of the bracket, check the diameter of the throttle cable stud. Some Systems
may use a 1/4” stud that will require drilling of the appropriate hole in the extension bracket to a 1/4” diameter. Attach the
extension bracket using two fillister head screws. The extension lever length can be adjusted using the four sets of holes.
3. Attach throttle linkage and have an assistant get in the boat and fully actuate the throttle controls. Make the necessary
adjustments to the throttle linkage to ensure that the throttle plates are vertical when the throttle control is wide open. Work
throttle linkage back and forth several times to ensure it operates smoothly with no binding or sticking.

DANGER! STICKING THROTTLE MAY RESULT IN UNCONTROLLED ENGINE OR BOAT SPEED. THIS COULD CAUSE
PROPERTY DAMAGE, PERSONAL INJURY, OR DEATH. A STICKING THROTTLE MAY BE CAUSED BY
IMPROPERLY INSTALLED THROTTLE CABLES, LACK OF CLEARANCE FOR ANY OF THE THROTTLE
LINKAGE, OR BY BINDING THROTTLE LINKAGE. CHECK ALL THROTTLE CABLES FOR PROPER
INSTALLATION AND ALIGNMENT AND ACTUATE THE THROTTLE TO CHECK FOR ANY POTENTIAL
BINDING OR CLEARANCE PROBLEMS AND REPAIR ANY PROBLEMS.

NOTE: Ensure that the factory shift interrupt (if equipped) has been properly reconnected, is in proper working order, and does not cause any throttle actuation problems.
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