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Winterising
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Author:  rsherry [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Winterising
Hi Guys,

We have a Volvo Penta 5.0GL with SX drive on our 205 Sundowner

My weekend tasks for this weekend was going to be to get it all winterised for the winter period..

However we are now predicted temps of -5ºC on Friday night, and i was going to be winterizing it on Saturday?
Am I going to be ok do you think, I was thinking of going and wrapping the block in blankets on Friday lunch for some protection, would that help?

Also just to check my plan for winterising this year, (baring in mind we only put less than 15 hours on our boat this year and it was serviced earlier in the year by a Penta dealership:

1. Drain drive oil and check for cloudiness, replace oil and check levels
2. Full drain plugs on the engine
3. Run engine with fresh water through (normally boat in salt water) and wait for thermostat to open
4. Run a gallon of anti-freeze through the engine
5. At the same time, fog the carb to protect the cylinders

Does this sound ok? We don't get the ridiculously low temps in the Winter months as some of the states in the USA with our lowest prob being -10ºC

Thanks in advance!

Rob
Author:  LouC [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Rob what is -10C in American temps, LOL...to crack an engine block all it has to do is get to 0 C or 32 F long enough and that's it...our coldest temps here are 10 F which is pretty darn cold......
OK first of all your priority is to get all the water out of the engine, antifreeze is optional. I have often said the suck up the antifreeze method is dangerous on raw water cooled engines because if the thermostat doesn't first close all the way, the engine won't warm up on the water hose, and then if it doesn't open all the way you will get antifreeze in the manifolds and mostly water in the engine, and maybe a cracked block in spring. Do NOT do it that way, unless you drain the block first, and even then, with a Volvo with the impeller way up on the engine, it may not suck in the AF unless the impeller is perfect and it may overheat the engine. Drain the block, the manifolds, raw water pump, and circulating pump (the last 2 by removing hoses) and if you want you can add antifreeze by backfilling through the hoses. Do a search, I have covered this several times in depth....

Your other steps are fine, I put in stabilizer for the gas on the last trip out, then I take the boat home, warm it up on the water hose, then change the motor oil and filter. Start it up again, check for leaks, then fog the motor. Next change the drive oil while the engine is cooling off (if you try to drain it right then the hot water will burn your fingers!!) After doing the drive oil I drain the motor as above. Then I back fill with -100 no tox antifreeze. Spray the engine with corrosion X and that's it. This fall I also replaced the starter, re-terminated all the starter wiring (salt water corrosion) and replaced the engine circulating pump (22 years old). In the spring I put in a new impeller....tune up....and she's ready for the water....
Author:  Borchik [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
If you winterize with antifreeze through the muffs method and only use 1 gallon of antifreeze you will loose the motor. I have said before that if done properly then this method works fine but you have to do it properly. 99% percent of the time when people do this themselves they do not use enough antifreeze and thats why they have issues. Being unsure I would recommend bringing it to a marina to have it done or do as LouC said.
Author:  kneel [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Quote:
However we are now predicted temps of -5ºC on Friday night, and i was going to be winterizing it on Saturday?
Am I going to be ok do you think, I was thinking of going and wrapping the block in blankets on Friday lunch for some protection, would that help?


If the outside air temp is going to -5c.. the inside air temp of the engine compartment will act like insulation, so I don't believe you'd need to go and wrap the block in blankets... I guess it depends on what the daytime temps are as well.

I would be much more concerned at -10c.. or colder..
Author:  07fourwinns [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Put stabil in the gas, fog engine, change the oil in the drive, pull ALL drain plugs and prob holes for rust keeping water from draining. I also like to pull ALL hoses on the engine to make sure no water is sitting in them.
Author:  rsherry [ Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Hey Guys!

Thought I would just update you all on how it went...

LouC, thank you for the advice!

I went down to the boat yesterday afternoon primed with all the tools, took off the cover and felt the pipes on the front of the engine, they were slushy but thankfully not frozen. So managed to drain all the slush out the pipes to the raw water pump and back fill the bottom ones with anti-freeze straight away, thought I'd leave it quite strong as it had already slightly frozen.

Then managed to get the drain plugs out, thank god water came out from both sides!! and the same with the manifolds, managed to drain them both as well. I then left them out as I filled the block with anti-freeze to check it was all clear and I start seeing anti-freeze come out of the drains so alls good. Put the plugs back in and topped up the antifreeze!

Thank god I did it yesterday, although this may not seem very cold, but we hit -8ºC last night, which a) for England is very cold and b) in November is very rare so very relieved that I did it yesterday!

Again, thanks for all the advice!

Rob
Author:  LouC [ Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Good job there Rob, glad you stayed away from the suck the AF up the drive method which could have caused much grief and expense! The simple drain water and backfill with antifreeze will do the job right with no screw-ups......
Author:  Tom H [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Just curious as to why the Volvo Penta recommended method of sucking AF through the drive is still so wrong.

It is important to let the engine run
for a while, in order to flush away any
sludge and salt that could otherwise
cause rusting. Then switch off the engine. Insert the
free end of the hose into a solution of water and
Volvo Penta coolant. Allow the liquid to circulate for
a while, without the bucket becoming empty. Switch
off the engine and replace the suction pipe.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Tom H wrote:
Just curious as to why the Volvo Penta recommended method of sucking AF through the drive is still so wrong.



It's not wrong at all. Lou is set in his ways and believes HIS methods are the only ones to use. I believe he thinks he sleeps
better knowing he used the backfill method. Who knows for sure.
There is nothing wrong with the back fill method, and 10 years of sucking AF through the drive has never failed me once. So either method will work IMO. It's up to you really.
This debate comes up every year, and you will find proponents of both methods.
Author:  Tom H [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
hey each to their own as they say.

has anyone actually had a block crack due cold weather? I would love to hear the circumstances.

I still see some people not do anything at all and never have a problem. I am not going to risk it.

Just as well I did with the unusual cold temps here in the Uk at thhe moment. -18c
Author:  millhaven_nice_guy [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Cap'n Morgan wrote:
Tom H wrote:
Just curious as to why the Volvo Penta recommended method of sucking AF through the drive is still so wrong.



It's not wrong at all. Lou is set in his ways and believes HIS methods are the only ones to use. I believe he thinks he sleeps
better knowing he used the backfill method. Who knows for sure.
There is nothing wrong with the back fill method, and 10 years of sucking AF through the drive has never failed me once. So either method will work IMO. It's up to you really.
This debate comes up every year, and you will find proponents of both methods.


Now, Now Cap'n... LouC certainly knows his $hit and is a big help to many people here especially those with older boats...
I happen to agree with you Cap'n about both methods being equally good. To me the best method is one that you develop yourself after you have a thorough understanding of the way a sterndrive system works. If you don't follow all the hoses and now which ones are drained or not you'll be in trouble. You can do the suck up the drive method and screw up, you can miss a block drain and screw up, you can not drain the oil cooler (personal experience) and really screw up!!!
I personally have taken to the method of removing all the hoses from the tstat housing, opening all the block and manifold drains as well as removing the hose from the bottom of the engine circulator pump. This way I know everything is drained. I then reconnect the big hose to the bottom of the pump and backfill the hoses at the tstat housing stopping to do up the drains after antifreeze has run from them then reinstall all the houses at the top. It's a PITA but I am confident that the engine and manifolds are protected this way. Others may take a lesser approach. This is the method I worked out for the 350 Mercruiser/Alpha 1 combos I have on my Chap. Hopefully I have better luck than the first year I did the 7.4lGi in the H260 :oops:
Don't get me wrong, I would love to find a quicker, easier, 100% reliable method unfortunately that means a mobile marine mechanic which I am not willing to pay for so I do my due diligence and hope for the best.
I will summarize a little here... Anybody that is not 100% comfortable with the knowledge & understanding of how their boat's cooling system works should not attempt this task. Marina's and dealers perform 100's to 1000's of these procedures yearly and they have INSURANCE that will cover them should a mistake be made. Your boat insurance will not cover a new block if you winterize yourself.

Enough said.
Author:  230 Mike [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Tom H wrote:
has anyone actually had a block crack due cold weather?


If you watch a few boating boards regularly, you'll see that a few of them happen every year about this time. The danger is real.
Author:  LouC [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
[/quote]it's not wrong at all. Lou is set in his ways and believes HIS methods are the only ones to use. I believe he thinks he sleeps
better knowing he used the backfill method. Who knows for sure.
There is nothing wrong with the back fill method, and 10 years of sucking AF through the drive has never failed me once. So either method will work IMO. It's up to you really.
This debate comes up every year, and you will find proponents of both methods.[/quote]


Well, Captn, it's not really MY method per se, but it's the method you will find if you look in recent Merc shop manuals that real marine mechanics use, and it's also in the OMC shop manual I have used since I have owned my boat. Neither one suggests using the suck the AF up the drive method. I looked at a Volvo owners manual and did see that they do suggest using that method. I have to say, after reading their owners manual, that it is very poor, vague, poorly translated and is likely to cause a relatively inexperienced do it yourselfer to make an expensive mistake.
To clear up a few things here, you need to understand how raw water cooling works. This doe not apply to closed cooling engines which can use the suck up the A F method without any problem. Your raw water cooled engine has an impeller that pumps water to the engine and a circulating pump that circulates it through the block and heads. When the engine is cold, the thermostat SHOULD be closed, that causes the raw water to go out the manifolds, but the water in the block does not exit, until the thermostat opens. You run your engine on the water hose, it's about 50* out. The temp gauge reads normal temp (let's say 160). What you may not know, is the thermo may not open enough running at idle, on a cool day, with cold water coming it, to allow the raw water OUT of the block. If you use this method and do not check the block drains to make sure AF comes out (and I'd drain a bit into a paper cup and stick it in the freezer, if it freezes, no good, drain it all) you could have a nasty surprise come spring.
If everything works exactly right (the thermo closes all the way, the engine warms up to normal temp, and the thermo opens all the way, and the owner runs through enough AF of the -100 variety), it can work. It can also work if the owner drains the block first. But if the thermo is a bit sticky and does not close all the way, the engine will never warm up enough to open the stat all the way, yet the temp gauge may read normal or close to normal. If the impeller is not perfect (on Volvos and Bravos this can be an issue because of the long run from the drive to the impeller) it may not suck up the AF and the engine can overheat. AF is more dense than water and is harder to suck up.
Sticky thermostats are a fact of life in brackish/salt water, I wind up replacing them each season, I could post pix so you can see what they look like...freshwater maybe does not share this issue...
I have had 3 experiences that make me think this is too risky. One was the first time I winterized, I used that method and then checked the block drains. What came out looked like rusty water. So I had to drain and backfill. Next spring I had the boat in the shop for some work (carb rebuild). The shop ran the engine on the hose long enough to adjust the carb, points and timing. When I got the boat back, I figured I'd drain the block because it was getting cold again. Thinking there was water in the block, imagine the surprise I got when there was still AF in the block from the previous fall. The thermo did not open enough to let the AF out and the raw water in, and they probably ran the boat at least 1/2 hr. Then just recently someone on this board or iboats, I forget which, asked about doing this, I offered my warning, he drained out a cup of liquid from each side of the block and put it in the freezer and it FROZE. He drained and backfilled, lucky that it did not freeze on him. And lastly my mechanics (best sterndrive mechanics in Western Suffolk County) also do not recommend that method. So there you have it, I am not so rigid, I am merely summarizing Mercs and OMC's methods, and I will respectfully disagree with Volvo, and suggest that whoever writes their owners manuals should be fired......
Author:  jvthundercat [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
Tom H wrote:
hey each to their own as they say.

has anyone actually had a block crack due cold weather? I would love to hear the circumstances.

I still see some people not do anything at all and never have a problem. I am not going to risk it.

Just as well I did with the unusual cold temps here in the Uk at thhe moment. -18c



I buy boats every year with cracked blocks. Most are too lazy to do it at all. Some Like my 261 Liberator the owner paid someone to do it and it still cracked.
Now you can back fill, but I flush. When you flush, you better know a thing or two about engines and how to read temps on it.
It has to cycle and set or it will not work out too well. As in, the thermostat starts out closed. When it goes above the 160 or whatever mark you have, it will go past it and come back down below it. Then after 5 to 10 minutes, it should settle out and bounce around 5 degrees or so up and down.

I put in a performance manual gauge to do this, as well as my Raytech gun to read it.
I get a good mix sample everytime coming out of the block.
Also, I use a pump, muffs and a large container and keep recirculating the fluid until done.

Since I like to tinker, I will spend alot of time doing this.
Author:  jvthundercat [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winterising
I should add, when in doubt, take it to a dealer.
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