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ethanol fuels
https://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6914		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  aussie_sundowner [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  ethanol fuels
not sure if this has been covered before, but finding standard unleaded is like finding hens teeth now around here. In Oz we have standard witch is 91 octane, and premium unleaded which is around 95 octane. Most of the 91 octane now has 10% ethanol in it...
my reading says mercury is happy with 10% ethanol, and being careful with storing it, ie short term in tank only etc, maybe every third fill use premium ($$) fuel etc etc

what are the non engine issues if any, like fuel tank, hoses etc ?
are they real issues or just presumed ?
Author:  230 Mike [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
The most severe problems are with fiberglass tanks, generally found in older and/or bigger boats. Other problems usually involve the fuel absorbing water (one of alcohol's properties) so that you end up with more water in the fuel than normal, and faster phase separation.

With my plastic tank, I've never had any problems. I just try to avoid it whenever possible and use as little of it as possible. Don't even get me started on the politics of it.
Author:  Aussie_Horizon_190 [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
Not seeing this quite so bad in Victoria - still able to get unleaded without ethanol. I'm a bit lucky I guess as I fill my at the local gas station (have to use premium to stop the dieseling). In NSW, they are turning all regular unleaded to E10 and basically the boaters have been told to suck it up or buy premium (the response I got from the NSW Government when I asked about this last year...).

I think the biggest issues will be increased fuel consumption (reduced range) and water absorbtion with E10. More than 10% Ethanol and you will want to look at replacing anything rubber in the fuel system/carby and probably go to stainless fuel lines. We may all end up having to look at this in the future... :shock:
Author:  LouC [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
A point of big debate here in the States. Some engines can tolerate it fine, but others cannot. Newer boats will have less trouble. One reason is if you have an older boat, the tank will have varnish build up from old fuel and the ethanol will loosen it up, cleaning out the tank but clogging filters. It's really bad for fiberglass tanks because it dissolves the resins used on older boats and that then gets into the engine, causing the valves to get coated with it and bending pushrods. There is a lawsuit in California because owners of boats with such tanks feel they were not warned that this could happen by the oil companies. The EPA here forced it as a replacement for the oxygenate MTBE which was found to be a carcinogen and getting into the ground water and was then very difficult to remove. Ethanol was the replacement which has some problems, lower energy content, leans out fuel mixtures, attracts moisture, corrodes some metals like aluminum. The gov't here forces things down people's throat, does not listen, then wonders why so many people hate politicians and regulators. Same thing happened with first gen airbags. Did not listen to the Detroit engineers, that they would hurt or kill smaller people, then the reports started coming in. That's what happens when you allow non-engineers who are basically ignorant concerning what they are regulating to be in control.

If you are using E-10, switch to 10 micron fuel/water separators and check them for water each season, if you find water get the tank pumped out before you have a big problem. I had problems the first year, needed a rebuilt carb and replaced the anti siphon valve. Then it was OK until last spring, my Q-jet had to be rebuilt again, that's 2x in 8 years. For a comparision, I had a Q-Jet on a 75 Olds for 15 years that never had to be rebuilt running on straight gas. So it does cause problems, despite what the regulators in Washington say....
Author:  298VISTA2000 [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
LouC wrote:
I had problems the first year, needed a rebuilt carb and replaced the anti siphon valve


Which has more issues with ethanol, carb or EFI engines?
Author:  LouC [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
298VISTA2000 wrote:
LouC wrote:
I had problems the first year, needed a rebuilt carb and replaced the anti siphon valve


Which has more issues with ethanol, carb or EFI engines?

I don't know for sure but since most EFI engines are much newer, it's likely that they were built with materials that will withstand ethanol better. The main thing is to keep water out of the gas, check those fuel/water separators, and use stabil for winter storage. I take off my fuel/water separator when I winterize and then check for water by pouring out the gas and letting it sit in a glass jar. Look for a layer of water on the bottom. If none, then it's OK.

the big issue is something called phase separation. Ethanol can absorb a set amount of water, and hold it in suspension. That's how dry gas works. However, once the mixture gets higher than a critical level, the water will separate out of the mixture falling to the bottom of the tank. It will then get sucked into the fuel system. Engines don't run on water. Since your life may depend on the reliability of your engine running, in a bad inlet or storm, to me this proves ethanol is an unacceptable risk in a marine fuel system, and the EPA has directly contributed to putting people at risk by mandating such fuels to the point that we HAVE NO CHOICE...THERE IS NO STRAIGHT GAS....THANKS FOR NOTHING, EPA AND AGRI- BUSINESS....
Author:  Borchik [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
yup, and now that they are going to start "offering" E15 in the midwest it should be really interesting. only issues i have seen on EFI stuff is in newer outboards, the ethanol lacks lubricants and is eating the inject tips apart, on all manufacturers motors. BRP now recommends adding a small amount of oil to the gas, even on the newer injected motors, and so far it seems to be a fix...for now.
Author:  LouC [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
Thats why I am sticking with my stone age tech I/O for now, with the good ole Quadrajet, I would hate to buy a nice new expensive OB and then have trouble like that. Worst comes to worst I can get it rebuilt or put on a new Edelbrock marine 4BBL on it for a few hundred bucks. I do want an OB because of salt water use here but the high tech OBs sometimes to not tolerate ethanol too well. The other issue is that when the ethanol is mixed in with the gas, the mix ratios are sometimes off, some have been measured as high as 20-30% ethanol, which will really cause issues. I have been buying gas from the same station on the water because I can ask my mechanics located right nearby if there have been problems, they would hear about it for sure.
Author:  french829 [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
This doesn't necessarily address the non-engine issues, but anyone else add anything to their tank to counter the Ethanol? I began using a product called Star-Tron this last season which is supposed to help with the engine-impact the Ethanol has. My friends swear by it.
Author:  wkearney99 [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
We've had 3 (four?) seasons now with ethanol added and have had zero issues with it. None. Not when running, not when stored all winter. Nor has anyone else at our marina. Supposedly it doesn't provide the same energy as regular gas (seen as lower MPG in a car). But given the horrendous rate at which a powerboat burns fuel is this really much of an issue?

Whether E-10 is a good idea, from an agricultural standpoint, is a different issue. I oppose it. But from a technical standpoint it really seems to have ended up as a non-issue.
Author:  LouC [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
the people who have had issues, are mostly those with older boats with varnished gas tanks, the issue is the alcohol is a good solvent and that cleans out the tank and clogs the fuel filters. Also some high tech outboards do not tolerate it well, and older OBs have some rubber hoses that rot because of it. The pandering to special interests is beyond disgusting, ethanol is no good in any way as a marine fuel. The FAA outlaws it in planes. The alcohol draws moisture in the open vent and eventually you get enough water to cause problems. Change those filters at least once a season and check for water....
Author:  230 Mike [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ethanol fuels
Gore Admits Policy Mistake

http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/ ... ibusiness/

The only shocker here is that the man admitted it.
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