www.iFourWinns.com

Looks like it might be time to do my exhaust. Stb side overheated briefly on sunday, no biggie (yet). Haven't checked strainer, impeller and the like. But noticed some rusty drip marks on manifolds near joint w/elbow (no riser inbetween) . Since I'm in salt and its been six years, I could be due for manifold work.

What's the recommended method fo confirming the need to replace them? Crack the elbow from the manifold and eye it up?

Anyone have recommendations for who's a good source for these parts? These are 6.0l crusader v8 engines.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Might be my thermostat. Took it out (it's mounted to the heat exchanger) and the problem went away. But can't do that long term as it doesn't allow the engine to come up to proper running temps. Ordered two, along with gaskets for the exhaust manifolds and elbows. If the thermostat doesn't solve the problem then I'll pull off the inside manifold of the starboard engine to see how it's doing.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

6 years You are over due. Time to have it done, before you cause serious damage.

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

..........and if my experience is anything to go by, fit a Neutrasalt system and you may never need to change them again ! Just starting my 8th season in salt water on the original manifolds and risers. as a precaution I took the risers off last Winter to have a look how they were doing, there was very little corrosion or erosion into the sealing surfaces.

Neutrasalt is cheap and the results speak for themselves.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold
Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread

Try THIS link......

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Are your manifolds on the closed cooling circuit or are they also raw water cooled? If they are raw water they and the risers both could be starting to clog with rust. I checked mine last year and after 4.5 seasons in salt water on one side 1 of the 4 outlets was starting to clog. I had a new set and replaced em, but that was not really the cause of my running hot issue. What it turned out to be (not thermostat, not impeller) was barnacles growing in the water intakes, I had to remove the plastic screen in the lower unit to get them all out. After that it runs at its usual 165*.
The issue with salt water cooled manifolds and risers is not just overheating, but if the water passage corrodes through, or the gasket between the manifold and riser leaks, it can put salt water into a cylinder. Most here recommend changing between 5-7 years.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

STFW yourself.

I ask here, among fellow boat owners, because I'm looking for more than just "any" source. Ones that deliver vs ones that don't, or ship crappy aftermarket materials.

Thanks for the run-down. I've had a diver doing the bottom work monthly but I'll have him double-check the intake. The strainer was pretty clear, just a few stray bits of leafy material. I've seen much worse. I'm less inclined to think it was blockage because the temp would run up just as I put an actual load on the engine. At only 1k RPM as I was maneuvering out of the marina it started spiking. So it wasn't a matter of it only happening under cruising or WOT load.

I pulled out the thermostat and that solved the overheating problem. But the side effect is the engine won't come up to temperature, of course. So it's not like I can run it that way.

They're FWC manifolds and RWC elbows (no risers in-between). Here's the page from the Crusader manual:


I've picked up a new thermostat and will give that a try. I've also picked up a set of elbow gaskets. I suppose the only way to tell if the elbows have issues is to remove them, correct?

I also plan on taking my IR thermometer with me next time (which I probably should just leave on the boat). I'll use that to compare temp levels between the two engines. Presumably if I've got a blockage I'll be able to narrow down where based on the temp differences between the two engines (at the same places, of course). The troubleshooting steps for cooling mention reversing the flow as a means to dislodge potential blockages.

I popped open the inward side of the heat exchanger and it was totally clear. I'm guessing that was just the FWC side. Getting to the other side is a hassle as the decking above has to be removed (and the seating above that too). I suppose I could pop off the other side over on the port engine to have a peek. If that looks nasty then it'd be reasonable to assume the starboard side isn't any better. The factory manual says pull 'em and have them cleaned by a radiator shop. But I'm guessing since removing the thermostat eliminated the temp spike then the exchanger is flowing freely enough to do it's job.

I've replaced the heat exchanger anodes before, usually every other season. They've never been totally eaten away though, probably just half-way. I did them last spring and when checked yesterday they still looked practically new.

Hopefully I'll be able to get down there tomorrow early. So I'll be able to get an overnight order in for elbows (~$150 each) Shipping will be a killer, but that's less "expensive" than losing another boating weekend.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

What a sense of humor you have. It was a joke.

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Yep about the only way to know for sure if the outlets of the elbows are starting to plug up is to take em off. Sometimes people rod em out but you have to use your judgement, if they have a lot of flaking rust then they are getting thin. Make sure to drain the raw water out of the elbows before you crack em loose or else raw water can run down the exhaust passage into the manifold (and cylinders). The IR temp gun is a good diagnostic tool, when I changed my manifolds last year I kept track of temps both at idle and after running on plane. This way I have a baseline and I know when its getting a bit warmer and it's time to look at them again. Just for information, the elbow section of mine are at about 100* F idling in the channel, and hit about 125-130* after running on plane. Engine temp is about 155 at the base of the thermo housing and 165 or so on the dash gauge. There are tests you can do to check raw water flow, the manufacturer specs a certain amount of water in a certain time span. I checked mine (OMC says a 2-4 in head of water out of the raw water intake, with the boat in the water idling)_ and thats how I knew for sure there was a blockage. After I rodded out the 4 holes on each side of the lower unit it ran at its normal temp again, it was getting to about 180 which is too hot for raw water cooling and hotter than it was in the past. When you have your boat out of the water in the fall I'd see about painting the water intakes with anti fouling if you can, barnacles can and will grow just about anywhere.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

The intakes are already painted with anti-fouling, and have not had problems in the past. No guarantees for current conditions, of course. That and I figure if they were actually blocked then when I removed the thermostat the temp would have kept spiking, and it didn't. But then I'm no marine cooling expert so I won't dismiss any ideas out of hand. I'm not prepared to go diving under it so it'll have to wait until the diver's back around.

Excellent tips on the temp readings. I don't recall the inboard starboard elbow getting hotter than usual, but then I wasn't paying specific attention to it. But it's a surface I end up in contact with when I'm down in the engine compartment, so I probably would have noticed if it was hotter than usual.

The service info I have doesn't mention flow rates on the raw water. If I continue to have problems then I'll have to dig them up.

I'll likewise drain the elbow before removing it.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Inboard side of stb engine is off. Elbows were the hassle, damned 9/16 nut requires a stubby 12 point box end wrench to get in there.

Surfaces between manifold and riser are nasty. Manifold surface is pretty rough. No apparent perforations though. So ive got elbows coming in from boatpartsplus and manifolds via cobe marine near baltimore. Manifolds would have been $300EACH to overnight had i not found them locally. Spent about $800 today on the parts and shipping. This after $250 for the gaskets and themostats. Its now officially a B.O.A.T. Job!

Manifold came off easy. Nothing seized or rusted. Not terribly heavy either.

Get this, the coolant require 33 liters of 50/50 dexcool. Ka-ching.

Now im removing the stb seating to gain access to the outboard side. And sweating like a pig in todays sweltering heat. Ah, boating.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Yep that is a pain of a job if it really hot out and you are struggling in a tight bilge. I did my manifolds last year but it was easy because OMC used studs screwed into the head with nuts and washers to hold on the manifolds, the nuts and studs are plated with something and they had absolutely no corrosion at all on them. I have the oddball one piece manifold/riser style so there is no joint to leak. But they cost more, 300-400 each when you could still get them. The weak point is that sealing surface, the cast iron gets eroded and then it does not seal perfectly. Good to do it before any leakage happens....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Got it all disassembled and parts are coming overnight tomorrow. Should be reasonably straightforward to reassemble. The manifolds were held on just as yours were, with a stud, washer and a nut. No troubles at all getting 'em loose. It was a bit odd encountering imperial measure bolts these days. I've been used to metric on most cars for the last decade.

The tricky part may be reassembling the fittings on the elbows. They're brass and a bit easy to deform, not to mention requiring a BIG ASS wrench. I may see about picking up some spares just in case. All but two of the manifold-to-elbow studs are perfect. I may replace the marginal ones.

I would seriously like to render a beating upon the idiot that devised the recessed nut holding down the engine-front end of the elbow. Damn thing is IN THERE and there's almost NO room to get a decent wrench in there. I had to truck out to a local Sears to pickup a 12-point stubby box end wrench. And then, of course, there's other junk mounted right next to it making it impossible to get decent leverage. BFH to the rescue. If I see you, manifold engineer... you better RUN.

One puzzling bit of the elbow is they sleeved (for want of a better term) the end of the elbow with a segment of hose and then clamped than inside a larger one. Dunno why. Worse, don't know if I can (or should) re-use the old one (likely not) or whether I'll be able to find a source for it tomorrow.

It was so damn hot in there I nearly had heat exhaustion. Got a bit dizzy and nauseous for no explicable reason, other than it was over a hundred degrees down in there! Had to climb out, guzzle a ton of water and gatorade and some kids snack bars left on board. Took a while to bounce back, but got to enjoy a nice cool rest in the mid-cabin berth (aka the 'hidey-hole' to our just-today-turned 4 year old).

And yes, I had to lift up the seat base under the starboard cockpit seating. Damn thing is awkward to get out of there. Doesn't take much time to get it out it's just a hassle. Once out you get considerably more room to work on the outboard side of the engine.

So with luck the elbows will come to the house early, then over near Baltimore (Pasadena, hon) for the manifolds and back to Annapolis to install them.

It's been a while since I've been this dog-ass tired out. But at least I'm not stuck waiting 3 weeks to get someone to come out for it.

_________________
-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista