www.iFourWinns.com

i have just aquired an 1990 221 liberator with the 460 king cobra i/o.
It only has 3 seasons on the hull,all were offshore in florida,the guy became ill and boat sat for over 10 years and water flled the botom off the hull and rotted out the stringers(i can fix that)but it was completely stripped of all interior,carpet,seats,evrything but the outboard drive.motor was pulled also.
problem is i dont have a clue how the interior ,floors,cubby door ,or anything looked before disasembly.Im looking for any pics of these boat from interior to exterior,engine,anything!
ill probly custom build the interior the way i like it,but knowing where evrything is to start with,Will give me a clue as to how custom i can go with it.
any pics,ideas would be greatly appreciated,thanks in advance,mike

Here is the link from the Four Winns Website of the PDF for the 1990 Sport boat Owners manual http://assets0.fourwinnsmarketing.com/past_product/owners_manuals_by_year//1990/Sportboat/Manual%20(Complete)%20-%2034.6MB.pdf

And for the brochure http://assets0.fourwinnsmarketing.com/past_product/catalogs//1990/43%20221%20Liberator%20(p40).pdf
and the specs page http://assets0.fourwinnsmarketing.com/past_product/catalogs//1990/44%20%20...%20Specs%20(p41).pdf

And fimally their Specs brochure: http://assets1.fourwinnsmarketing.com/past_product/specs//1990/30%20221%20Liberator%20(p80-81).pdf

_________________
Jvalich
http://www.badcock.com

'04 FW 288 Vista "Mental Floss"

hey thanks,it has some pics but if anyone has any more,please let me know.thanks again,mike

Howdy,

Be particularly careful with replacing the stringers. if you don't get the engine aligned perfectly you'll destroy the coupler. Couplers are not very easy to find anymore. Look the manifolds/risers over closely. If they're rusted out you can probably get a set of manifolds from Doug Russell. ($1000)...they have a set on ebay right now. I don't know if you can buy riser/elbows though.

If it really is a 90 model OMC 460(and it has Spitfire ignition) and you have any problem with the ignition you'll have to switch to a distributor. There's pretty much no replacement parts for the 460 Spitfire systems left out there...

Check the transom wood carefully. If the transom is rotted you might have a job that could cost more than the boat is worth.


Regards,

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

thanks for the reply,i found the coastgaurd sticker under the drivers consol and it is 1990 four winns 221 liberator
i think someone has replaced the ignition with a points distibutor already.and the risors are heavyly rusted the elbows are toast,i think the risers can be salvaged,but i will need new elbows,if i cant find any ill make some out of stainless,was thinking of building some stainless risers as well,tryn and shave a little weight when i rebuild the boat.
hopefully the stringers wont be to hard to replace.either way ill built a jig to set the motor mounts before i remove anything.then ill alighn the motor/drive and everything with as much precision as posible,ill break out the dial indicators and shim it to the nearest .0001.
i have found lots of pictures online but still need more if anyone has any or if someone here is close to rogers arkansas,id like to take pics of your 221 liberator.
thanks again for all the responces,mike

Hi Mike,

I did a little searching around and it appears that the elbows for your 90 460 were replaced by a more generic riser/elbow. OMC #3857944. Ebasicpower has a Sierra replacement for about $110 each. This also means you can probably get the same one from Napa out their marine catalog. I also have 2 good (fresh water) riser/elbows that I took off mine....I guess I should put them on ebay or something....I sold my distributor to a guy locally with a 90 OMC 460. He had that same electronic ign system too.

http://www.boats.net/ does have a parts search engine that actually lists BRP parts for the 460 to include the exhaust manifolds (about $425 ea) and the coupler (about $350) You might give them a call and see if they have suppliers now for that stuff....

They were the 2 real show-stoppers for my 1987 460 King Cobra when I pulled it out which is the main reason I swapped the KC for the Merc.

If I had known this I might have left the 460 in my Liberator!! When I called Shorts Marine and Doug Russell a few years ago they told me that no one was going to be making Manifolds or couplers anymore...

Maybe BRP has found manufacturers for these critical parts...

If you have rusty manifolds and/or riser/elbows it won't be long before they start leaking. the external appearance is not an indication of what they look like inside. If they leak it won't hurt anything while running but once it's shut down, they will allow water to run back into open exhaust valves and you'll hydro-lock the engine when you try to start it later.

Building jacketed stainless risers is not an easy chore, but not impossible. If you could do it cheaply you'd have a lot of buyers out there. A set of jacketed SS manifolds are something like $2500 or more for a Bigblock.....


Good luck, the Liberator is a cool boat!

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

i saw a couple of the elbows like mine on ebay last night,on for $75 the other for $110.
i could build a set of manifolds and elbows out of schedual 40 stainless tubing for around $300 and i would have to bend them myself,i just dont have a bender that will handle that thick of tubing.if i bent them and wraped them with 1/8" stainless plate or double tubed them they would last longer than the boat and weigh a fraction of what the cast iron ones weigh.i also may have found an aluminum bbford block,a friend of mines father was a bigtime racer back in the late 60s and early 70s and hes thinking they may have an old aluminum block in there farm shop,they have a couple of old camry 427s and some dodge hemis but they wont part with those.
aluminum heads for the bb fords arent that expensive so an all aluminum motor and lightweight manifolds should free up about 250 lbs. less pounds = more speed,i would like to see 75 to 80mph in this boat.the brocher says it will do 65 so10 to 15mph shouldnt have any drastic effects on the hull,(i hope anyway)
it wont see saltwater anymore since im over 500 miles from the coast,it will see a lot of lake action on beaver and tablerock lakes so the corrosion in the aluminum should be minimum and it will be flushed and drained evry time it comes out of the water.
thats if everything comes together without any problems,if not ill drop the cast iron stuff back in.
what was the top speed of your liberator,and what type of skiers could you pull.the lakes around here are fairly smooth iv only seen choppy water reach about a foot high waves and really close together so im guessing the hull should handle these without any problems.this is my first personal boat and my first deep v style that ive had a chance to play with so im learning as i go along.any tips are greatly appreciated,thanks again,mike

Before I switched I considered all the same stuff you're mentioning!

An aluminum engine would be AWESOME! if you did that you could use the aluminum heads that have BBC ports. Then you could use aluminum 454 manifolds and risers!

That could remove nearly 300-400lbs from the back of your boat! but the cost

If you could get that aluminum block for a "song" you'd REALLY have something!




My brother bought this boat new (he wanted the 460 over the 454 because it had a few more HP)

He told me that it would do right at 60mph (5000rpm/1.43:1 drive/20p SS prop) and he checked it with radar. It was always little slow out of hole even when new but once on plane it accelerated pretty good.

When I got it it would only turn about 4000 rpm and I discovered that it had a few flat lobes on the cam (that would have caused the weak upper RPM)

When I decided to rebuild the engine I found that I couldn't buy manifolds or a coupler (and I had the dog-clutch drive) I decided to repower it. About that time we had a huge wind storm up here in the NW and a guy N. of Seattle had a 150' maple tree fall on his 98' Bayliner. His insurance company "totaled" his boat....long story short, I got a complete 97 model year carb'd 454 & Bravo III for a "song"!


Now I'm about 3 mph slower but it just ROCKETS out of the hole twice as fast as it ever did (my brothers words when he drove it!)

You have OMC's first year for the interim Cone-clutch drive. You can also get a kit from Volvo to install a much newer (and still supported) DP-S drive. The Duo prop might be a tad slower top speed but the acceleration and hole shot will be spectacular.

I don't know if you have the same hull as mine but the Liberators typically have a GREAT rough water ride. My brother originally ran it in Lake Mead, NV and it gets pretty rough. He said it performed pretty good in rough water....


The Liberator is not all that great a "Ski" boat IMHO because of the HUGE wake..... When I had the 460/KC installed it was so slow out of the hole that some Skiers complained about being dragged thru the water too long. With the Bravo III now, it just pops right up on plane almost immediately. (I wonder how it would be with a stroked Aluminum BBC? )


It is a pretty good Wake-board boat though (HUGE wake at about 18mph)

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

my 221 looks identical to the red one obove in the posts,it has a grey stripe just below the rub rail and i dosent have to forward lights(yet!)oh yeah and mine has NO interior.
it came on a galvaized 2 axle trailer with hydraluic tounge brakes and removable tounge to fit it in a big garage,its a tad longer than your 211 and it looks as though it has a deeper vee hull than the 211.
i traded some truck axles and a steering colume for it from a friend who didnt have time or money to fix her up.as for the aluminum block,its a long shot if i get it,either way,since i dont have a lot of cash in the boat to begin with,then if i spend a lot (say 5 grand on motor and interior and i do it all myself)then im still under what the value of the boat is worth so i dont mind the expense,just might take me a couple years to get there in todays economy,lol
i can easyly tweek the 460,even stroke it to over 500ci for less than 1.5 grand.(crank-rods-piston,machining block)getting 600hp or more out of this motor wont take much,the downfall is the outdrive unit.will it handle more than 500hp.or will the transom bust with that much trust from the prop and torque from the motor.and i want it to be semi reliable,lol,like i said im new at boating,i have been dragraceing since i was a teenager,got married,had kids and got out of raceing.but "i still have the need for speed"
ive always wanted a powerboat but they were out of my price range,till this one came along.to me its a old rustbucket waiting to be reborn into a street machine,er water machine.ill start on the stingers and such as soon as the weather starts to warm up here in nwark,ill focus on the motor after i gather all the parts i need to build it the way i want.
ill post the slow progress on here as i go along till the point that i acheive 70+mph on the water.
till then thanks for all the input,ill probly need tons more as i go along.thanks,mike

Well,

What ever you do......before you spend a lot of money on the interior, be sure and check that you can get a coupler for it!

If they actually are not available. You'll be literally dead in the water when yours fails and you'll be right where I was replacing EVERYTHING forward and aft of the transom because very few parts from the 460 King Cobras were used with any of the other more common and still supported Cobras. OMC only offered the 460 from 1987 to 1990, and went out of business around 1998. The 460 wasn't all that popular and the "other" sterndrive manufacturers completely stopped using Ford marine engines altogether.

As far as worth. I donno. I paid $5k for mine. Way too much. even in running condition. Right after I bought it I found an 87 just like mine (same color even!) on ebay that looked perfect. It even included a fairly new trailer. The engine and drive was missing. The starting bid was $1500. I watched it for the entire auction and NO ONE bid on it. I don't what happened to it!

I have slowly sold a lot of the OMC 460 "stuff" that came out of my boat in the last year and am up to about $1500 recovered so far. I still have the good condition vertical drive, 2 SS props, trim cyls and pump. I also have the manifolds, risers, and some other stuff. I think I'll probably get about $1000 for the drive. and a few hundred for the rest of the "stuff". That will offset the $6K I have in the Merc engine/drive + everything I did for the installation, including adding closed cooling.

I was able to do all the swap myself. If I had to have it done, well, I would have just cut up the boat and took it to the dump because I don't think it would have been worth it!

You also have another option since your drive in 1990, was offered with a 454. You could find a BBC and scrounge the parts to swap out the 460 for a 454.....Volvo still supports the 454 completely and I think just about everything is available for them (except the Spitfire ign but there's other ign systems out there for 454's) And of course you can do the DP-S drive too.

Just make sure you dry everything out (stringers/transom) REALLY well when you rebuild that area....mine was a mess back there......

BEFORE:


After:



Cheers,


Rick

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Dang, Rick, that's something else.

Every time I see a Liberator pic I can't help but grin. Those things are awesome.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

dang,you said the magic word,CHEVY:-] me and fords dont get along,its a mutual thing,lol
if they offered a bbc in the same year then it would be easier for me to build a chevy,the ford block i have is toast (froze and cracked)so ill have to buy a servicable block to rebuild for the ford,i can get one for 250 out of a truck and only have to bore it and buy the pistons due the extremly low hours on the original motor,i can use everything else in the motor.
but i can build a bbc for less with more power,hmmmmmmmmmm
ill have to check into that now.
my transom looks simular to yours but it has heavy gauged aluminum angle that bolts to the side of the stringer and the motor mount sits on top of it.and as far as i can see the transom isnt damaged at all,just the stringers so far,ill put a fan in it with a tarp over it for a couple weeks to dry it all out when the weather turns warm.
hmm,i have a 8.0 liter v10 in my big dodge,and it has the same bolt patern as a bb dodge,maybe i could put it in the.....nah, i need somthing to pull the boat with,lol
thanks again for the info,mike

Hey thanks Mike! (230 Mike!) Just think how cool it would be to have a 261 Liberator with twin 502/Bravo III's in it!!!!!





Mike,

If the 460 is done.... I would start looking for a 454/502. There's nothing that would require you to stay with the 460.....


And if you want to go with a Mercruiser Bravo I or III, you can probably sell the OMC drive and gimbal if it's not in too bad a shape.

I considered using a Volvo Penta engine/drive but when I looked at the availability of Mercruiser parts out there I decided to go that way......Go to Ebay into "Boat parts and accessories" and do 2 searches....... 1 for Mercruiser and 1 for Volvo. on any given day you'll get 3 times more hits for Mercruiser than you will for Volvo.

Don't get me wrong, Both are excellent!......If I had found a BBC Volvo Penta engine/drive that's what I would have in the back........but I had that complete Merc engine/drive just "drop" in my lap! I couldn't pass it up!

OH, and by the way EITHER will bolt right in using the original and same bolt holes as the King Cobra went in..... (With a Bravo, you will drill 2 additional bolt holes in the transom at the top of the drive cut-out) you'll also need to relocate the side engine mounts when going from the BBF to the BBC

If you stick with the OMC, you will need to find an OMC (454) flywheel housing though it's also your rear engine mount.
the OMC part number for the 454 was 0913786 superseded by 3852831

Switching to a 454/502 would also solve the exhaust coupler/manifold/riser problems too.

Believe me! you'll never regret getting rid of the 460!!

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

i like the 261 twin drive liberators myself,everythings better with twins,lol

i was on ebay last night and found a chevy bell housing that looked exactly like mine for the 460 ecept for the chevy bolt pattern,mounts were in the same place and everything.also found 1 motor mount for a sb chevy,are they the sam as the bbchevy.didnt see any risers for bbchevys on there.
i know where a bigblock chevy is siting and can probly get it for a small amount,it will need completly rebuilt,so it wont be cheap,maybe i should rebuild the ford since all i have to buy is a block and rebuild kit and its ready to go,i wonder what a freshly rebuilt 460 with motor mounts and bellhousing,and drive coupling,risers(minuse elbos),starter,alt,power steering,would sell for.
maybe i can sell it to offset the cost of converting to a bbchevy. there is a big boat shop here in town that has loads of old boats,ill stop by monday and see what he has.
my cobra drive looks like new,this boat was only mildly used for 3 seasons,less than 200 hrs on it.it was just left to rot for 10 years on drydock and flooded with water.
ill get on ebay again later and see what merc and volvo has to offer,what ever i do it will have to be on a shoestring budget untill this economy comes back,
thanks again,mike