www.iFourWinns.com

I am looking at a 1988 241 Liberator and was hoping that you guys could shed some light on them. It is a single 460 KC. What are some problems that I should be looking at when I see the boat. Also, I have been reading your posts and your information has been very helpful thus far. Are these boats good boats? How is the 460 motor and how does the OMC outdrive hold up in these things? How do they compare durability wise compared to a mercruiser? I know that OMC went out of business so how are getting parts for these OMC drives? I know that last season something broke in the outdrive but a marina is in the process of replacing the parts now so I would assume that that part of the boat should be good for a while as long as I replace the oil in it. Any information that you guys could give would be appreciated. Thanks

VERY smart of you to ask before you buy.

Unless you can get it for nearly nothing, DO NOT BUY IT.

OMC went out of business more than 10 years ago. The 460 was only offered from 87-90.

Some very critical parts are nearly impossible to find. (Manifold, coupler to name 2)

The Dog-clutch Cobra (of which that is) is fairly difficult to get adjusted to shift right. (although once it's right it's not all that bad.

Since OMC didn't make a lot of 1.43:1 King Cobras some of the repair parts for them are getting scarce. (although you can still get them rebuilt)

Most dealers do not want to work on them and a lot of the marine mechanics that went to the OMC schools are not around anymore.

If you could buy it with NO engine and drive, and you had a new or fairly new BBC Volvo Penta or Mercruiser (complete) system cheap, and you could do it yourself, I would get it (assuming there's no rot in the stringers/transom (but you wouldn't know that until you pulled the engine, drive, and gimbal)


The 241 is a very cool Liberator. I wish my brother had bought a 241 or 261 because I would have it right now.......(scratch the 261.....I wouldn't be able to afford the gas!! and I would have had to find 2 454/Bravo III combo's!!!!!)


Consider this. A good condition 88 241 with a low time Mercruiser 454/Bravo or Volvo DP-s engine/drive might be worth about $10-12000....maybe less.

If you took that boat into a Mercruiser dealer and asked them to pull the OMC out and replace with a 325hp 5.7L Bravo I combo (which I just saw on ebay) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Ac ... 240%3A1308

About $9250 delivered. I got my 97 model 454/Bravo III for about $5k but I was VERY lucky to find it!! A few dealers around here told me that I got it for about 3-4k less than it was worth!!

A shop would probably want about $2500+ to install it. (That's what I was quoted to install my 454/Bravo)

After it was all said and done you would have nearly $12k in the boat.

Not that bad probably .....but you have to get the boat for free to make that program work.

That was for a small block engine. I am very skeptical that a 241 would perform very good with a small block...

I would want the 375hp 496MPI or the 496HO 425hp model with a Bravo III.


So there you go. If you buy it. Don't pay too much.


Regards,



Rick

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1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Wow, I hate to say it but you really took the wind out of my sails(sorry cheesey). From what I can tell, and I have been looking around for about 6 months now, my purchase price of $7000 is decent.

The boat has about 500 hours on it. I got a second opinion from a guy who burrowed it from the owner. I have not seen the boat as it is about a 4 hour drive away. There was a gear that broke in the outdrive that is being replaced as we speak by a reputable marina. I am waiting for that before I go and see it so I can see it run in a shop. Gel coat is very decent, interior is original but not brittle and in very good shape for 20 years, cabin is good. The gentlemen that burrowed it said it ran perfect, all the gauges worked, controls good, steerings tight. It slipped out of gear right at the end of his trip(split gear opened up on the driveshaft spline). Didn't pay too much attention to it. The owner took it out next time is when the outdrive problem really surfaced. The marina completely disassembled outdrive and said everything is good except the gear and the splines on the driveshaft from gear opening up and minor stripping of splines. The guy that burrowed it is more of an aquaintance than a friend and said he was actually going to purchase himself, but had sunk too much into his other boat to justify selling his. His motor blew in his right before a planned family vacation, thats why he burrowed it. He was going to purchase it for $8500 at end of last summer, I can get it for $7000. It still has the original cover though its pretty shot. The owner said he never used it because it was always stored inside and the boat looks that way from pictures. The guy that burrowed it said its conservatively an 8 out of 10 on condition. I have read your threads on the swaps, but I can't imagine that that 460/OMC King Cobra are all terrible. I have read from the threads that those parts are being made again and their prices are more reasonable than previously. Also, I am pretty mechanically inclined, though most of my experience is with cars and rebuilding my brothers mastercraft Ford 351 winsor(my only boat experience, but this is an inboard so no drive). I am the type to buy a repair manual and do everything myself. Can I throw a Bravo III on that 460 motor if its still strong? The guy who burrowed saw no reason why the motor would need any work, it ran great he said. Pulled great, cruising throttle response was good, top speed was 52 mph on GPS with aluminum prop. Let me know your thoughts and I appreciated your advice.

Adam

There is alot truth around OMC and King Cobra stuff not being reliable, available, etc.

There are such things as diamonds in the rough. You could pick up the boat, drive it like you stole it, and never have a problem with it again. or you could spend 7k, use it twice and something breaks - and you are out 5-10k on a new motor/drive setup.

If you love the boat, love the deal, and it makes sense to you - do it.

But, be aware that SOME people have had bad experiences with OMC/King Cobra drives. They seem to be more problematic than other combos.

Maybe offer them 5 with the comment that you fully expect to have to do an engine/drive replacement while you own it. The OMC/King Cobra stuff is notoriously sketchy (example being the work being done on it as you speak).

But - if you love the boat - make it work!

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Hi Adam,


Well I just got off the phone with Doug Russell Marine Parts.

The parts guy told me that the manifolds are now available again. $1000 for a set. but NO riser elbows (his words)

The coupler, "maybe, but not now and didn't know when". He said BRP is going to have a source "eventually". He also said "most" of the parts are available for the drive (EXCEPT GEARS)



This happened because the lower shift cable was either defective or out of adjustment. A VERY common problem for all dog-clutch Cobras.
When they get out of adjustment it takes VERY little time to break the "dog-clutch" and by the time you figure it out it's broke.

Read the following http://www.hastings.org/~stuart/cobra/



Well probably not.....Mine went nearly 20 years with little problems.
But, go to iBoats into the I/O forum .....Or to Offshoreonly.com and pose the same question. iBoats has a large amount of professional mechanics that work on stern drives for a living......try to ignore their sarcasm (sorry) and you'll get the most accurate responses from their point of view. Most of them will tell you that they don't want to work on any Dog-clutch Cobra or any Pre-Volvo Penta Cobra.

The 460 is not a bad engine but with some parts being not easily available, it makes it a real problem.

Case in point, I sold my OMC 460 aluminum flywheel cover to a shop in SOCAL recently. His customer has a 88 26ft Bayliner with an OMC 460KC in it.

On the way back from Catalina Island, the coupler literally exploded. It destroyed the flywheel housing and damaged the transom plate and gimbal mount.

He told me that the transom plates are available used on ebay etc, as are fair condition, gimbal mounts...... The flywheel cover is not available from anyone period anywhere except from another salvaged boat. Without the flywheel cover the boat is done. Being an 88 it was not worth repowering with a new Merc/Volvo bigblock sterndrive. The insurance company refused to cover it because they said the coupler failure was a maintenance issue.

Another example,

I sold the exhaust Y-pipe to a guy in FL. His customer (actually his friend that had his boat at a shop) was told that his 88 460 KC y-pipe was so corroded that it started leaking. (A leaking Y-pipe will SINK THE BOAT!!)

He was told by the shop that they could not find one at all (maybe they didn't look very hard) ....... again his only source for a Y-pipe would be from another used boat. If it was a salt water boat, the replacement might be worse. (Mine was a fresh water Y-pipe with no corrosion as well as the transom plate and gimbal mount.....he bought it all from me)

Again another show-stopper part.





In a word, NO. There's no transom shield for any Mercruiser to bolt to a 460.

And you wouldn't want to . NO ONE uses Ford marine engines anymore in stern drives. Zip, Zero, NADA.

I suppose you could put together a "Franken Boat" with a LOT of money and exotic machine work.....but it simply wouldn't be worth it.

There so many 454/502/496 engines out there that will bolt directly to Mercruisers and Volvos that it's just simpler to do it that way.


I paid my brother $5000 for my Lib. I was able to remove the OMC "Boat Anchor" and replace it with the Merc engine/drive for about $6000.
So far I have gotten about $1500 for all the 460/KC stuff. I still have the vertical drive, trim cyls, pump, power steering stuff, good manifolds and risers to sell....

I paid $3-5K less for the Merc engine/drive than I would have gotten it from a local dealer and because I did all the work myself I saved another $2-3K.

It was a fun project....But with so many boats out there for sale in this economy that have Volvo/Merc engine-drives in them that are much newer.....

I think if I had to do it again, I would find a much newer boat with a more modern engine/drive in it.

If I found a 241 (and I really do like the 241!) with a 460/KC in it, I don't think I would offer more than about $3000 for it.....Then I would get a new/old-stock 496/Bravo III to go in it....(but only after I checked for transom/stringer/floor rot)



Good luck......



Rick

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1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Rick gave you a good sum up of the pros and cons of such a deal. Keep in mind it's a 21 year old boat, and there can be a LOT wrong with a boat that age, all of which is expensive to fix. The obvious issue is that it is an OMC boat, so it's going to be harder to get service, not impossible but it varies by region. The other is that finding parts, certain ones can be tough, or impossible. Finally unless you repower it with a Merc or Volvo drive system the resale value of OMC boats is pretty low. The other issues are typical old boat issues, rot in wood framing, fiberglass issues, etc. Mine is the same age and I had to do a deck and stringer job (major work) on it. Still has the OMC drive system on it which works fine.
A project like this is not for the faint of heart, you have to be able to deal with unexpected costs and things just plain wear out. Many Cobras are still running round just fine, but would I buy one now, well I might take the boat (if great otherwise) for free, but there are too many Merc and Volvo boats out there, why make your life more complicated.

Actually my next one will be an outboard (salt water area).

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

To all,

I really do appreciate your thoughts on this. I do not want to justify this purchase, but if I know what to look for and have advice from all the experts and have a good mechanic(though I would try to do everything myself) that knows OMC's, and the exhaust manifolds check out or at the least thats all I have to replace, and I know how to set up the coupler alignment right, and know how to adjust the shift cable correctly, what are my chances of having a good running boat. In other words, if I do all the research, talk to you and others that know these setups shouldn't I be able to run this system successfully. I guess my question is, is it the people that don't care to pay attention to certain things and just run there boats the ones that have all the problems or is this just a total crapshoot with this setup. I would say my region is very good regarding boating and service/parts options, Chicago area. I have the Great Lakes region, I live on the Chain O' Lakes/Fox River just outside of Chicago which is made up of over 12 lakes with marinas all over the place(at least a few hundred in a 50 miles radius). Between Minnesota, Wisconsin, Lake Michigan, and all the Michigan state Lakes I think(not sure) I'm in OK shape for parts. I mean you can find 16' to 40' boats here on the Chain all day. Please tell me to shut up. I am justifying this aren't I.

Just gotta know what you are getting yourself into.

the chances of you buying something and then it breaks.. and no parts to EVER fix it is pretty slim.

And we'll always be around to help (and harrass because we warned you).


Obviously - the worst thing that can happen is you get to do a motor/drive swap. It's a big job, but not monumental.

_________________

2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Adam,

I think you're going about this right. (I sometimes wish I had!)

I just did a little Boat Trader search and only found something like 30 Liberators (211/241/261) for sale nationwide!! (got all excited when I saw all the 261's for sale for around 9K!

I did see a 241 for for about 16K with a 7.4/bravo Mercruiser (might have been an Alpha)

Also found one with twin Mercruiser 350MAG's....

My ideal would be the 241. It's a cool boat. I can see why you like it.....Looks like something right out of Miami Vice!!

If everything is "ok" you could run it knowing full well that you need to look for a Volvo/Merc engine and drive to replace it with in the future.

Just don't pay too much. (LouC is "spot on" there!!)


Cheers,

Rick

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1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Guys thanks for all the replies. I'm not yet convinced I can't make this work. Please don't take it as I don't value your opinions. I think if I do my homework and follow your directions I can deal with the OMC. I am through with what I do but now believe I have more to bargain with now. Bottom line is the seller needs to come down on the price knowing what I am going to be dealing with. I think its worth the 4 hour drive to at least look at it. Thanks everyone for all the info and advice but I think I just like this boat too much. I think all of you can admit to being guilty of this at some tie or another. I'm am still excepting all and any "your an idiot for buying anything with an OMC" comments. Thanks
Adam

Now wait a min!

I don't remember anyone saying you're an idiot for buying anything with "OMC inside"!!


We do want to ensure that you are completely informed as to what it means to have a 460 Kobra under the hood!!!!

I think you know now. We can now wash our hands of any perceived responsibility in your decision!!

Just tell the owner what you now know and "Low Ball" him. WIth a little patience I am going to recover about $2000 from selling all the OMC junk. I'll effectively have about $4000 in the swap making my total cost about $9000 in my Liberator with 97 (125hr 454/Bravo power)

Not a bad deal in my book. If you can do something similar, you'll have an even cooler boat!! (get a 496HO though.....that thing will fly!!!!)

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1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

Go look at it, and if you love it - BUY IT!

You'll know when you see it. It's just that warm, fuzzy feeling when you say "Oh yeah, that's the one!"

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Ok, I know you are tired of talking about this, but I did find a company that converts the coupler to allow you to use a mercruiser one. Service with new coupler under $500. See this http://www.performanceengines.ca/OMC-couplers.htm. Not the end of the world. Now the exhaust manifolds are available as well so thats done. The gears sets are still a problem, but hopefully there are enough used ones out there that this could be OK as long as your careful and set up the shift cable correctly. From what I can tell as long as this is done right you shouldn't have any issues. I am hoping that I can get a few years out of it and in the meantime look for a donor boat to swap out the engine/drive.

Sounds like you've got a plan.

Still shoot for a lower price... but at least you've got a backup plan in mind.

And +1 on the donor boat -- you could find a nice 496 with a Bravo 3 drive setup in a few years for cheap.

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA