www.iFourWinns.com

Let's not feed the media hype machine. Everyone's greedy. Even the perceptions of altruism on the part of some other countries is only supported behind the scenes by things like nationalized oil companies or outrageously high taxation. So this isn't something any one country has a monopoly on.

Dealerships are only available when there's an opening. Slow sales all around is unlikely to change that situation very much. While a dealer might prefer one brand over another, there has to be enough incentive for the vendor to change the status quo. Right now that's not terribly likely unless the current dealers get dropped. Adding more dealers doesn't usually help as the competition drives down prices, which hurts profit margins, which are slim already and then the dealer can't afford to properly support the customers, leading to the brand taking hits, further driving down sales.

Anyone heard word on how GM's marine engine division is going to come out of all of this?

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

If Genmar is going to stay in the game for the long term, selling off Four Winns would be a huge blow to them - unless they plan on picking up an ailing company and making them better.

The R&D from FW feeds the product development machine at Glastron as well. What happens to Glastron if FW gets sold?

As for build quality and QA - I am a firm believer that there are significant differences. Where one company may put 1 QC technician for an entire boat, another company may be more focused and have 1 QC technician on drive systems, another for electronics, another for structure, another for finish.

It all depends on how much money you want to put in into it.

To say that QA at Four Winns is the same as other companies is a very naive statement. Honestly, between build quality and materials used - I would say that even if QC is equal - FW is still a better offering than other companies.

you really think that QC at Bayliner is the same as QC at FW? Really? I'd push back on that one.

As for banks not giving loans -- that's old news. And frankly - if banks arent giving loans to someone - there has to be a reason for it.

I have a HUGE loan to me for the 318 - only my mortgage is larger. I had absolutely ZERO issues getting approved on the first try. no issues, no bumps no bruises. Last month, we bought my wife a 2010 Lexus RX350 -- again, zero issues getting financing for the portion we financed.

If you have good credit, a balanced debt/income portfolio, solid income performance, and use a reputable bank -- you should have no issues.

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Not so for Genmar, which is what this topic is about.

Some topic related talk from Irwin Jacobs here

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Uhhh...

Genmar has companies with horrible sales and they are losing money every direction right now.

What bank would loan you money on a sinking ship?

Banks aren't unreasonable, they just don't want to pump a bunch of money into a company that might not make it through.

Yes, banks are tightening the credit lines. And they absolutely should be.

We all understand there's a rough economy right now and I am sure banks have other priorities for pumping credit into that are not the boating industry. That doesn't mean there's no wholesale credit available, it's just that the credit being pushed around needs to be more balanced.

It's not that credit isn't available - it's that banks won't pump that credit into a sinking ship.

If Genmar shed off some of their negative assets (which I think we will see them do as part of this filing) - I would bet that banks would step up and provide more credit.

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Well, sometimes people confuse quality of components with the quality control process. Take a superior set of components and do a bad job integrating them and you'll have a problem. But that's nowhere near the same issue when starting with an inferior grade of products. It might be possible to have perfect QC but in the end you'd still be stuck with crappier components and their related problems like shorter service lifespan. I was really surprised how much better the quality of components and the integration of them is on the FW boats. Rinker, Larson, Bayliner and others were notably inferior especially in high-use situations like cabinetry. Granted, the boats were less expensive but it wasn't hard to tell why. I hate cheap crap that falls apart. But then since many boats are only owned for 5 years that might be part of the plan. This seems to be reflected in the resale prices. A cheaper boat sells for a lot less used, and comes with a likely greater number of impending failures.

As for sinking ship, it's also important to look at the health of the financial institutions. I don't know the details here, but there are plenty of times where a bank will throw a company under the bus because of the bank's current short-term health (like playing the stock market). They're just as guilty of exacerbating problems that would otherwise be manageable. I'm sure more than a few companies have had to threaten bankruptcy in order to slap sense into their financial institutions. They often lose a lot more when a company files than if they'd renegotiated.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how the proceedings develop.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

I think we all have valid points, and differing opinions.

Great points Bill -- and from Cap'n's perspective, he is spot on.

I hadn't had my morning cup of coffee yet and thus had blinders on to my perspective only.

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Hello all, long time no talk. Just to give you some issue.........I have not been following most of this but called FW today.

My dealership went out of business last summer 2 months after buying my 08 FW 224. I called to arrange some warranty work and Brian Lacky in the warranty department was very helpful and very nice. He told me they would be more than happy to work through my marina and also commented that he would take care of all the problems without exception. He did add at the end to give him till Monday to authorize work, didn't go into detail but I'm sure it has to do with the Chapt. 11. Still was a good conversation and as of now I'm not worried.

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2008 Four Winns 224 Funship 5.0 GXI/DP Black w/ Tower
2007 GMC Crew Cab Short Bed / Bose Ed.
2007 Fourwinns H180 (SOLD)

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"

I can tell you that banks are making loans and want to make more GOOD loans; meaning to people who will probably repay them without having to resort to foreclosure, repossession, or law suits. Many people do not want another loan.

Something similar to our economic situation happened in Japan in the 1990s. They had a huge real estate bubble, partly caused by easy credit. When the bubble popped the Japanese government tried to encourage lending by cutting interest rates to almost nothing but it did not work. Individuals and business saw that their assets were worth less so they responded by REDUCING debt, not increasing debt.

I think the same thing is happening here. The mortgage dept at my bank is covered up with loan business but 80% of it is refinancing an existing loan with no new money - just a lower interest rate and a lower payment.

Glad to see this post because whether or not warranty work is honored is what is really at stake here. I remember when OMC filed Chapter 11 in December of 2000 (2 months after I bought my Vista), they totally bailed on all warranty work and it wasn't until Genmar stepped in and purchased Four Winns that I was finally at ease. Let us know how it goes.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

CC, to me, Four Winns has the best style boat out there, I really like the layouts, gages, hardware, ect.... I totally agree you can not compare a bayliner to FW. I go to the boat shows every year and still have yet to find a boat I like better than FW.

BUT, I think that Four Winns is FAR from where a good manufacture should be as far as delivering a quality product right the first time. Many posts here are very concerned about warranty work. If it was done right the 1st time, there would not be a need for warranty. I know, I know, there is not a manufacture that makes perfect product that never fails or has issues. If you compare the boat/RV industry to the automotive industry, automotive quality is far superior.
We all accept that we buy a boat/RV and know that it going back to the dealer for (with four winns a small punch list) a list of items that need fixing, replacement, adjustment, ect... and many times, our boats/RV go back a number of times.
When we buy automobiles we would freak out if it had to go back to dealer for a week for fixes/issues. Is your wife going to let the dealer keep her new car for two weeks while they do warranty work, NOT!!!! But yet, we all are happy with our boats being delivered to us sub par. Why is that, is it because they are toys?????

Bill described it better than I, there is a difference between process of building the boat and installing purchased hardware items. FW has no control over failure of purchased products.

Enough of me rambling. You get what I am saying.

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2000 248 5.7L DP
'92, '94 SXI 750, '08 STX 15F, '12 Ultra LX 300
Videos

Some facts announced today:

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Thats great information.

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Current Boat:
2004 Sea Ray 320 Sundancer "Nauti Luvin'"

Previous Boats:
1999 298 Vista "Seas The Day"
2008 H200SS "Nauti Luv"
2006 Tahoe Q4

Thanks for that Cap'n. I posted it over on Boatered where it has been the subject of much discussion as well.

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Previously:
2008 V358/Volvo 5.7 GXi Inboards

We are trying to get some warranty work done also. Our dealer said to give them till next week to see what is going on. Right now they can't get anything from them. Sure hope they figure something out.

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348 Vista ( Last Call )
Raystown PA

I'm in the gridlock too I suppose. Good news is, I just spoke to my dealer (in FL) He had an email from Irwin Jacobs (as of Friday afternoon) stating that the holding bank? has approved warranty work, rebate claims, employee benefits and there may have been something else. So hopefully that gets things moving again.
EDIT - Completely missed your post Cap'n! That's the verbage to which he referred.