www.iFourWinns.com

It seems the boating industry is about where the car industry was back in the '70s before any foreign competition forced them to start to change....I have never bought a new boat and probably never will....the levels of depreciation you have to endure is just too much....and the quality of warrantee service surely is not what one would expect based on the purchase price..I will continue to buy boats that can be easily serviced by local mechanics for any things I can't fix myself...

My main problem with the boating industry is that with respect to problems....the buck is always getting passed...it's a Mercruiser problem...it's a Volvo problem...etc they should have the kind of relationship with these suppliers that would enable them to satisfy the customer who is spending a HUGE amount of money on something that can be used only 6 months out of the year in many places...When auto companies have problems with the quality of suppliers products they are the ones dealing with it..

And finally, there really are too many different boat brands...that sell similar products....chasing the same limited #s of buyers.....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Let me just touch base with a few points mentioned in this thread especially about Quality Control...

LouC, powellcrazy, Cap'n Morgan and some others:

There are some facts that you and many others should think about before you complain about or compare the quality control at Four Winns to the car industry or other boat manufactures.

-Not all boat companies have nearly the same quality control!!!

There are very few boats out there that are delivered to a dealer that are as water ready as a Four Winns and this comes from both Quality Control and the Quality of Components. WM has worked with many boat companies throughout the years including Four Winns, Lowe, Suncruiser, Sea Nymph, Premier Pontoons, Parti-Kraft, Hurricane, Glastron, Scout, and Bryant. I am also friends with and have past/present employees that have worked with many other boat lines at many other dealerships including Sea Ray, Cobalt, Chapparell, Regal, Rinker and the list goes on. The fact that we can pull the factory wrap off a new boat and show it to a customer without any surprises and then have it in the water in no time with very few or no issues is basically unheard of. Many other manufacturers' new boat prep can include fiberglass work, shift/throttle cable adjustments, electrical problems, running issues and other issues.

There are always exceptions but typically the prep on a Four Winns is smooth with very few warranty items. How is this done? R&D designs a boat that can actually be built by working with and having knowledge about production, better training and lower employee turnover on the production line, more check points on the production line and the fact that the boats are actually dropped in a pool at the end of the line and water tested. There are many other factors such as Four Winns having a single Northern based factory that everyone speaks fluent english so that there is no language barrier and also employees that care about the product they build but I could go on and on...

-You should not be comparing the boat industry to the car industry...

Trying to compare a boat with the expectations that you have for your car may sound great but it's not reality. If the car industry built a few hundred or at the most a few thousand of each model that they came out with and they had the resources and capital to work with that the boating industry has you would have far greater issues with your new car than most boats on the market. The boating industry is a fraction of the size of the car industry and that is spread out over many more brands of boats than cars. There is nothing that will change this including foreign competition as mentioned by LouC.

Four Winns builds a boat that performs great, they innovate and come out with cutting edge designs like Stable-Vee and the SL series, they build their boat with quality components and they have quality control in place to deliver a product that can be built by people not robots in limited quantity and on a production line that is shared by many models. Compare this to a car that will be built in the thousands or hundred of thousands so that the R&D, testing and custom designed components costs can be spread out over all those units and the fact that the car will be built on its own production line with millions in custom tooling I would hope that most small issues are resolved or not present on your new car!!!

Powellcrazy, this is why a small punch list of items on some boats is to be expected. The important thing with Four Winns is that they pay warranty right away to dealers and they are the easiest to work with warranty wise out of all the companies we have worked with. They realize that there will be some issues as a boat breaks in and gets used and they stand behind their product better than any other manufacture that I have worked with.

Graham R posted that if they spent 1% more to assembly it properly they wouldn’t have as many problems, if that was the case it would have been done a long time ago. The cost of finding and working out every little bug or detail that a dealer can do under warranty would simply price any boat out of the market. Everyone these days wants value for the dollar, would you pay thousands more for the same boat so that you didn’t have to write a little hit list of things to check/repair when you bring it in for your 20hr check or winter services that is going to be covered under warranty anyways?

If you would like to relate this to car industry as it has been done, they still have warranty issues when they are new with millions of dollars invested in R&D and usually large teams of engineers and designers building and testing them.

The bankruptcy that was the original topic of this thread is business as usual at Four Winns. I find it surprising that some dealers actually stopped doing warranty work last week on boats that they had sold. That’s a sure way to make people nervous about their new boat and the manufacturer.

Ryan

Ryan,

My comments were based on my own experience. What is that phrase with it's origins in the days of wooden ships? Something like "spoiling a ship for the sake of a half pennies worth of tar " ! It's a shame for a manufacturer who specifies high quality components and does most things so well.

Take the hatch in the cuddy; clearly from what I saw there were 2 attempts to drill the holes and it was then fitted; leaks subsequently found either at the factory or the dealer, ( due to the frame being not quite in the right place so the foam seal was not doing anything at the forward end) Corrective action taken ? ; put in a shed load of while silicon from inside the boat. (which admittedly did the job for a couple of years until it came away). Somebody paid for that person's time, whether it was at the factory or the dealer.

Did they remove the hatch to try to find out why it was leaking to possibly prevent it on later boats and avoid this extra cost? Maybe, but I suspect not ( otherwise a much easier and longer lasting repair would have been to put a bead of silicon on the flange !). The whole wasted time ( = cost) could have been easily avoided cheaply or even for free with a little thought about "design for assembly"; they mould in a recess on the deck for the hatch; they could either easily have made up a drilling jig/ routing jig for the hole in the deck so the main hole and the screwholes would always be in the correct relative position; cost shared over all models using that hatch., Or even moulded in little dimples in the flange to show where the holes should be drilled. Both ways to remove variances due to human error.

The mild steel bolts holding the swim platform to the transom? ; I'm sure they would have been specified as stainless and should have been stainless. Were they short of four 2 x 1/2" stainless bolts for my boat and went down to Home Depot? Or were a lot of boats built around the time mine was built fitted with those bolts? It was cheaper for me to replace the nuts and bolts myself rather than tow my boat 100 miles to the nearest dealer,

Graham

PS I'd be very bored if I didn't have litle jobs to do on the boat, even correcting factory mistakes !

Well I am glad to hear that the level of modern Four Winns boats is that good....I would certainly consider another one except for the fact that they do not make even ONE outboard powered model which in my area is preferred to a sterndrive...
I will add a few comments that can shed light on boat owners frustration...and this is not the boat companies fault per se but the nature of the industry...
When FW was owned by OMC (86-2001 or so) many FWs came with OMC Cobra drives...when they were having their problems with shift cables....there was not much FW could do for their customers...until OMC got their act together...by that time the reputation of the Cobra was not good and their sales suffered...
A similar issue cropped up with corrosion in the Merc B III, again since it was a Merc problem...not much FW could to to make the situation better till Merc did...which took a couple of years...

As far as my FW experience...of course the quality of a 21 year old boat is not relevant to what they build now.....but since I had to do a deck replacement and stringer repair...I can tell you the stringers were not even glassed all the way up....the top was raw wood....the deck was stapled down with hundreds of nasty rusty staples...each one penetrated the deck and let moisture in...and of the screw holes for the seats, etc, not ONE was sealed....I corrected all of these problems when I rebuilt it...the quality of the 'glass work on the hull was good and it was always a good running boat...the OMC problems...solved by my very good mechanic....but I think the boating industry needs to have a closer relationship between boat builders and suppliers...to increase customer satisfaction...

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I have owned one used boat and 2 new ones. The used boat was a disaster, traded it for a new boat after 6 months. The new boat is the only way to go if you don't have mechanic skills and must pay for all repairs. I kept my last new boat for 13 years, then sold it to a relative. My H 240 is 2 years old, been back to Lake Norman Marina at the end of each season to fix all small warranty issues, no serious problems. By a new boat, keep it a long time, and depreciation doesn't matter.

LouC,
The quality of a Four Winns has always been very good. If you compare your 21 year old boat to the construction of other 21 year old boats and even some more recent boats you will be very surprised at the difference. I don't know how old your current boat was when you had to replace the floor which is always a very fun job but I will tell you that I see many Glastrons, Larsons, Bayliners and even Sea Rays with soft spots in their floors when I take them in trade and some of these boat are not even 10 years old. Your stringers were not fiberglass encapsulated all the way up because the theory was that water sits in the bottom of the hull. Nobody ever glassed the floor; they simply glued and stapled the carpet down. With your boat covered most of the time and even when you would get the floor wet, it would dry out. Where the wood came in contact with water all the time, there was the fiberglass to protect it. Of course we know that eventually there was enough moisture in the boat and the carpet would stay wet from leaky or no canvas and this would rot out the wood. This is why Four Winns started going to all fiberglass construction in late 1996 with their RX hull and by 2000 most of their boats were all fiberglass. This was years before most other manufacturers went to this and at first it hurt sales because of the price increase. Here is an interesting bit of information, hop in a Crownline and open the ski locker and look up at the top of the compartment going towards the back of the boat and all you see is wood in an area that is always wet...

OMC Cobra got a bad name because of the shift cable recall and not enough dealers making sure that customers had it done. We never encountered this problem because we adjusted shift and throttle cables every spring as preventative maintenance and when the recall came out we simply replaced the cables. It wasn’t a big deal at all, I actually still prefer the Cobra over a Merc Alpha any day. The M10 gearcase on the Cobra was much stronger than the Alpha and when adjusted correctly the Cobra shift much better than the Alpha. The Merc Bravo III has had steering gimbal and corrosion problems but dealers that stayed on top of things this just was not a big deal. Four Winns has always worked very well with us and whoever the vendor is that we are having a problem with. I think you need to consider buying a new Four Winns that is all fiberglass construction from a dealer that is capable of fixing problems and encourages preventative maintenance and your boating experience will be much better. As far as depreciation goes, we see 10%-15% depreciation in the first year on a new Four Winns and when you compare that to new cars and other boats and you will find that to be very low. You are also getting full factory warranties and the fact that you know what the boat has been through and how it’s been maintained. I used to always buy used Jeeps because of the savings over new, but my last 3 Jeeps have all been new ones because I maintain my vehicles very well, like having the warranty and I always ended up spending money fixing used ones even with low miles.

Graham R.,
The leaks on your cuddy hatch I can guarantee you were not found at the factory but instead at the dealership. The hatch should have been removed and corrected but it sounds as if a quick fix was done by the dealer. Boats are still built by people so there is a level of human error. It sounds as if the person installing your hatch simply screwed up and tried to correct it. You can build more templates which the factory has done to simplify production and not depend so much on a workers skill level but there are thing on boats such as canvas the comes out better being hand fitted. There is some variation on each boat and on parts so jigs and templates don’t always work great. It’s a very hard balance that I have seen the factory try to figure out what works best. The screws I’m surprised about because usually all that stuff is stainless.

-Ryan

WOW I did some, little research when I decided to trade in our 1st boat. An 03 Bayliner 185BR 4.3L. I bought it used in 07. Great 1st boat no problems did some cosmetic maintenance. I'm a Corp. aircraft techician by trade for 20+ yrs, so I do all my own maintenance on everything I own. But I didn't realize the big difference in the FW quality, compared to some of the others you have been dealing with all these yrs. I'm glad to hear/read all the good things that you have to post about FW. I know in ANY mass produced equipment they can/will have problems, just reassuring the know that our FW was the best choice for what I was looking for. Now I just need to convince the wife that, yes we COULD use an H210 or H240 in the not to distance future!!

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2008 H190 Blue W/Red accents 4.3L Merc
2015 Tacoma Access Cab Super White 4x4 TRD Sport
2014 HD FXDC Black Stage 1 Mods V&H Bolt Ons,Naked VO2 AC & FP3.
2011 Polaris 500HO RED]
Life Long Boston Bruin Fan 2011 Stanley Cup Champs!!
#736

Ryan,

Nice to come across a dealer very knowledgeable about their product line.

I can well imagine things like canvas require the human touch in fitting them correctly, each seam in the canvas has a +/- variation and cumulatively that could add up to quite a few mm variation cover to cover. The hatch frame is injection moulded though, there shouln't be much variation frame to frame.

The non-stainless hardware; it was a bizarre mix, mild steel bolts (with their heads exposed to water) on the outside, stainless washers and stainless steel nuts on the dry inside of the transom ! I'm sure they were all meant to be stainless, but the mild steel ones crept in somehow; maybe they were supplied to FW with the swim platform by a sub-supplier. I never thought to check the bolts before using the boat in in salt water for a season, there was no reason to as I hadn't come across any non-stainless hardware on my previous Four Winns. The extensive rust staining I found when it was taken out of the water at the end of the season was a surprise. Serious question, I'm not trying to be a smart alec; do you know if the thick aluminium washers used underneath the swim platform on the ladder screws are meant to act as anodes to protect the stainless screws and the ladder? ; they certainly corrode away quite rapidly in salt water and I am wondering whether I should have replaced them with aluminium, or whether the thick stainless and polycarbonate ones I fitted would be OK?

I would buy another FW, but there is no large cuddy in the range anymore and I don't need a cruiser, so I'll probably be hanging on to this one for some time. I don't want to go to a smaller cuddy, even changing up from a 225 to the 245 I found a noticeable improvement in the way the boat handles rough water. Bowriders are out of the question due to the rough water and poor weather we frequently encounter ! Do you know if there will be a large cuddy from FW in the future?

Graham

Ryan I do agree with some of your points....especially regarding the OMC Cobra...when it is set up right it works great...shifts with 2 fingers...better than an Alpha and quieter as well...but for owners who didn't have a good mechanic...not so good....I am lucky to have one especially as the last dog clutch Cobra was made 16 years ago....
As far as the boats themselves...like Graham I think I need a closed bow for my next one....medium size cuddy, don't need a cruiser yet....I know they make one....but it's still a bit on the small size for the hull itself....not much bigger than my old 88 200 if you don't count the added on swim platform...

I actaully prefer the older Horizions because for one thing the 200 of today is 19'8"...my old one is 20'9", more than a foot longer...the hull is deeper...the seats are higher...and the boat feels a lot roomier...finally the engine compartment is much more wide open and for anyone who maintains their own IO like I do that is a big advantage...to get the same size Horizon as I have now I'd have to go up to a 210...nice boat....but I really want a cuddy...with an outboard....and will probably have to buy a walk around with an outboard because that is a popular configuration today.....I know you used to be able to get a 205 Sundowner-- same hull as my 200H....with an outboard...from about 88 to 92 or so......we moor our boats here in salt water so the IO is pretty labor intensive...they can be made to last but you have to keep on top of it....and the antifouling paints for aluminum never last the whole season...you have to pull it out midseason to re-paint or else you will have a barnacle farm in the pivot housing...

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Lou,

Wasn't there a 195 Sundowner/ outboard version in the late 1990's?

Graham

I think there was..I know for sure they had the 205 Sundowner available with outboards...from 88 to 92....as you could also get the Horizon 200 (same hull) with outboard power as well.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

A little "Business As Usual" feature from local TV news on the bankruptcy from last week.
On the right of the page, there is a quick video of the factory, local dealer, etc.

http://www.9and10news.com/category/story/?id=155206

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Boats aren't selling, so Genmar jumps on the wind turbine bandwagon....



http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk ... inews.html

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

I'll second that Lou,

After I removed the 460/King Cobra from mine, I found that FW did not properly seal the transom drain area at all! I wouldn't be surprised if there was a LOT of Liberators out there with rotten transoms....You don't know about it until you remove the gimbal or start blowing couplers....(and in the case of 460's, NON-existent couplers)

The quality of the fiberglass work was pretty sub-standard.

Now having said that most people don't keep their boats 20 years. and they're the ones that go back and buy a new one thinking that their previous boat was great and a new one will be just as "great".

They usually don't know about the older ones that are starting to get rotting floors and transoms etc.....

_________________
1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III

OOoooooo.......Unprecendented



Lots more reading/ info here

.

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy