www.iFourWinns.com

I've been trying to track down what's causing water to appear in the forward bilge in our 348. Much to my horror I found the dealer had done a completely half-ass job of 'fixing' the broken waste tank sensor. The sensor, a Xintex unit, is a crappy design to begin with (pun intended) as it tends to get gunked up and starts showing false readings. The fix is to unscrew it and clear the gunk. Even with biodegradable boat toilet paper ($$$) it still gets stuck pretty easily. Must be why FW has gone with something else for new models. Anyway, back to the dealer, when the cleared the sensor again (third time now) they slathered caulk all over it. That's OVER it. Not under it where it meets the tank. Thus is leaked right out under their mountain of silicone caulk. Leaving a really nasty brown mark where it streamed out of the tank and down into bilge beneath it.

Thus explaining the bad smell coming out of the AC system. AC you say? What's that got to do with the waste tank and bilge? Well, the AC system pulls return air through a grill next to the steps. If that grille gets clogged then it'll pull air from anywhere else that's open. There's an opening along the bottom edge of the AC unit shelf that leads to the bilge. Thus the stink, it was pulling return air up from where the damned tank had been leaking. As an aside, the treatment stuff I've been using kept it from smelling like shit, it was more like the bottom of a compost heap.

I'm convinced they didn't winterize it properly this last winter. First they had to replace the fresh water pump "for some reason". Then I noticed the water scum line in the bilges (both front, middle and engine). Then the shower mixer was leaking (seems like the cartridge expanded for some reason, like ICE...) Fortunately the support folks at Shurflo are sending me a replacement mixer cartridge free of charge, bravo!

But there still seemed to be a leak somewhere causing water to pool up in the waste tank forward bilge area. After a considerably nasty clean up job, and removing a ton of the wrong colored silicone caulk (white) put over the factory tan latex caulk, and more than a few unpleasant loads in the WetVac, there was still some water collecting. Fortunately my resealing of the waste tank sensor isn't leaking. Funny how that works when actually DO IT CORRECTLY. Still, there's water...

So I start checking if the various hoses are tight. Lo and behold, the shower sump hose BREAKS OFF in my hand. There's also a suspciously large amount of caulk on it... And when I tried to get at the piece of the hose barb still left in the hose it's broken in several rings. And, to my dismay, I notice this hose barb is actually MOLDED into the sump tray itself. Cripes, I gotta replace the WHOLE tank now? So I start pulling the hose from the pump to the inside barb on the tray and notice there's a one-way valve inside the hose. Hmmm, winterizing and no pumping pink stuff all the way out would leave water ahead of this valve but still in the hose... just ready to crack things when it freezes.

I say no pink stuff because it was clear the sump still had gunk in it from last summer when I picked it up this Spring (after being over a month late).

So I gather my pieces and head out for parts. I check Boater's World and their plumbing section seems a bit smaller this season, no luck. I note they actually stock the whole Jabsco sump assembly; to the tune of $110. I stop by Home Despot and pickup some PVC 3/4" hose to 1/2" thread fittings; one male, one female. My plan is to cut out the old barb and use these adapters to butt up against the sides of the sump and seal it with 5200. I also pickup some 5200, the big tube for $6 along with PVC primer and glue. But the HD fittings use a 3/4" thread and that's going to need a pretty big hole in the sump. A stop my the West Marine shows they've got 3/4" barb to 1/2" thread fittings, yay! Those will fit better. I note with disgust they're gouging $14 for the very same size tube of 5200 I just bought for $6 at Home Depot. Well, they gotta make a profit somehow, right?

I cut the old barb out of the sump tray. Thank the Lord for dremel tools, it made quick work of the plastic. I had to trim the inside barb a bit to accommodate the hose with valve leading to the pump. I actually had to trim the pump barb a little too. Then I screwed the two adapters together and gunked up a goodly amount of 5200 between them and the tray edges while threading it tight before the PVC cement set up.

The adapters were $8 and had I not had to buy yet another tube of 5200 and PVC cement (both of which I already have at home...not here...) that's a lot better than $100 to replace the whole danged tray. Of course, tomorrow the pump will probably crap out and I'll be back to zero again...

So, time will tell if that's the (only) source of my leak. Wish me luck.

And if you ever need to replace the hose barb on your sump tray, consider my patch job as an option.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Bill,

A bad dealer sure can put a crappy taste in your mouth, pardon the pun!

That sounds like one heck of a cleanup job.. I think I would send the dealership the bill!

Your Shower Sump was a Jabsco and not a Rule unit? The Rule unit in my 248 was broken in the same place, on the Rule they have a three inlet manifold glued onto the box and the inlet from the shower sump had cracked. It cracked either due to the hose clamp being over-hoarked, or may have been dropped or even cracked when shipped to Four Winns.

At any rate I had standing water in the mid bilge (which doesn't drain for squat!) so I pumped it out with my handy dandy tempo hand pump. Used some Clorox cleanup and then sent an email to Rule. The new sump was about $110 and they sent me a whole new sump, free of charge!

Boy I'll tell ya, with boats it's always sumptin!

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Brett DiMichele

I don't know if it's a Jabsco or a Rule kit. It has a Rule pump and float switch in it. When I was at Boater's World they had one just like it; a model 98 unit. Same pump, same float (the 98A uses a different float switch). I thought it said Jabsco on the box. Since ITT owns both Rule and Jabsco, who knows. This is what it looks like and a link to it:



Mine broke that one separate barb, the one leading from the pump to the side.

Good idea about calling Rule to wrangle a freebie. I'll try that next week.

Meanwhile, you're right about the bilge not draining. It will, eventually, through a channel that leads to the mid bilge.

On the 348 there are three bilge sections. One from just behind the forward berth leading to where the steps come down. This one contains the waste tank and the shower sump. It has no bilge pump of it's own. It has a channel leaving the back of it that leads to the second bilge area at the aft end of the mid-cabin, just ahead of the engine room bulkhead. There has to be a LOT of water pooled up in the forward bilge before it dribbles back to the mid bilge. Or a bunch of time up on plane, heh. Trouble is that channel area between the two isn't accessible. I'm less than thrilled at the idea of waste having gotten through that space... But I've run a LOT of water and clorox through it so hopefully it's reasonably clean now.

I'm thinking about getting a "portable" power bilge pump of some kind. One with a 12v plug and a bit of hose on each end of it. If only to allow me to get to the last bits of water that tend to pool up just out of reach in a couple of places. I've used the WetVac but it's, of course, way too bulky to keep on board, not to mention makes a ferocious racket. One more thing to add to the shopping list...

There still seems to be something dumping water into the shower sump. I hear it running now and then. I guess I'll have to do something like pull and plug the hoses, one by one, to see which one gets water backed up into it. I hope it's not the shower sump. Shurflo's sending me a replacement mixer cartridge. But I pulled the existing one apart and seem to have stopped it's leak. At least it's not leaking out the front, I have no idea if it's leaking out the back and there's NO good way to get to the back of the shower mixer area.

As for the forward bilge, I'm just hoping the trouble isn't with a waste hose. I really don't want to have to get into pulling new toilet hoses... Nor do I want to put up with the inevitable weeks on end we'd be without the boat while someone else effs it up.

As for the dealer, yeesh, I still have a bill outstanding with them. They're trying to charge me for stuff that's their own fault, but didn't charge me for something that was admittedly my fault (wrapped a 2nd anchor on a trim tab and mangled it). I'm drafting a letter next week and CC'ing it to my attorney. We're not at the lawsuit stage yet, but if this nonsense continues that will probably be my only choice. It's not like they're being jerks about it, they're just not handling service in anything resembling a competent manner. They nice people, to be sure, they just can't seem to get service done right. That's what makes it difficult, if they were assh*les then it'd be easier to step up to the fight and figuratively start kicking some ass. Anyway, that's fodder for a different thread...

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Good info, Bill, I'll be keeping an eye on mine for sure; I don't know what brand I have.

I am not looking forward to these types of problems. With my 278 at the marina and nearly an hour away, it's going to be a hassle. That and the fact there is no Boater's World or West Marine store anywhere in the state.

Also, sorry you're having such a difficult time with your dealer on all fronts. It's an uphill battle when they're not on your side.

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SOLD! 2006 30th Anniversary Vista 278
"Conch'd Out!"

http://vista278.com

The bad news is the leak doesn't appear to be going away. And it seems to be rather stinky water. I'm less than pleased. The discoloration "could" still be left over gunk from places I can't quite reach to clean. But the water's not. I'm toying with the idea of using some food coloring to see. Or maybe some sort of ultraviolet leak detector fluid of some kind. I've got a portable UV light at home. Maybe an auto parts place would have something designed for radiator leak tests or something. I'd worry that food coloring would end up staining something. I don't need more problems.

My biggest concern is it's something up near the toilet. I am NOT looking forward to pulling THAT off.

As for the dealer, it's not that they're "against" me in this. It's more like by the time I burn 2 hours worth of fuel (there and back) and leave the boat for a week longer than they promise, the problems STILL won't get solved. So you can imagine why I'm less than enthusiastic about letting them anywhere near it again. I've tried, really, and been as polite as is humanly possible. But at this point I'm really, really fed up with them.

So, anyone have ideas on leak detection?

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Bill,

Yep that's the model 98 sump, same one my 248 has, probably the same one Shan has in his as well. As you stated, Jabsco, Rule, Marinco all fall under the vail of ITT Corporate. But I have to say, they are FANTASTIC to deal with!

I submitted a "tech" question using the online form and a tech by the name of Michael got back with me the next day. He sent me out a completely new sump box (I told him I did not need the pump or float just the sump). Then I found out my Jabsco head wasn't sucking in raw water and emailed him and asked if he could help even though he was on the "Rule" side of the company. He immidiately sent me out a new Joker Valve and upper gasket set.

All of this without me having to prove ownership or anything.. I was actually amazed about that!

After I installed my new sump I tried it out by running fresh water into the sump via the shower drain. I pulled the access pannel and again my bilge was full of water... At that point I must admit I was pissed! Well it turns out that the rule pump has a Joker Valve in the short line that connects the pump output to that "molded in" barb on the sump. The Joker Valve is to keep the pumps output from comming back into the sump, and to prevent sea water from entering the thru hull and flooding the boat.

Well if you think about it, there is probably 6' of at least 1/2" line running from the sump to the thru hull (well at least on my 248 there is) and all the water that doesn't get pumped out of the thru hull will lay in the hose. This was causing a leak around the molded in discharge barb even though I had it tight. So what I did was I pulled all the hoses off the sump. I used clear silicone RTV to run a thick bead around the back of the barb's and the front of the barb's and then I slid the hoses back on so they would go up and kiss the sump box or all the way on the barbs. That caused a nice bead of silicone around the hose to sump. I then reclamped all the lines and all seems to be well.

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Brett DiMichele