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 Post subject: First time winterizing
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Goldfish

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Can I get some tips you kind gents?! 1996 195 Sundowner. First winterizing process.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Hey jd, the basics are (in no certain order):

- Pull batteries, put on trickle charger.
- Add Sta-Bil winterblend to gas tank.
- Drain water from block and seawater pump and hoses. Once empty, backfill with anti-freeze.
- Throw some damp-rids in the cabin/cuddy to fight mold/mildew.
- Pull spark plugs and spray WD-40 inside
- Fog engine

Some advanced things:

- Pull outdrive to check u-joints/gimble bearing/bellows. Store inside.
- Final coat of wax.
-Make sure trailer is good to go, brakes/lines/tires/etc.

These are what I can think of off top O' my head. More, better experienced gents will be along soon with more, better tips.

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1996 205 Sundowner DLX
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Tow Veh: 2012 Nissan Frontier Pro-4X


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:52 pm 
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jdclay wrote:
Can I get some tips you kind gents?! 1996 195 Sundowner. First winterizing process.


There are MANY past post on this and opinions too. I would do a search and get a feel for the best way. Keep in mind that a close & open systems are done differently.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Sad to say its getting close to that time, I tend to do mine end of Oct because I can't stand doing it on a 40 degree day in Nov.
Put enough Stabil in the tank before your last run, so it gets well mixed in.
After you pull the boat, run it on the water hose till it gets warm, then change the oil and filter. Next run it again and fog the engine (if carbed or throttle body injection, if port injected you have to use a special mixture of gas, stabil and 2 stroke fuel in the fuel filter). After you fog it let it cool off.

Now for the most important part, draining the water. Remove each drain (2 block drains, one on each manifold) and poke the holes. Make sure water comes out of each one. Then take the raw water intake hose off the thermo housing, point it down in the bilge so it drains. Then, hold the hose up and fill it with no tox antifreeze till it comes out the drive water intakes, that will also push water out of the PS cooler. These coolers have drains but they can be very tough to get at. Next, pull off the bottom end of the big hose on the circulating pump on the front of the engine. Lots of water will drain out. On some Volvos, you should pull the hose from the impeller housing to the thermo housing, let that drain too. Some 4.3 V6s have a square plug drain on the front of the intake manifold. Look for it, mine does not have that though. OK the engine is drained. Sure you got all the plugs and hoses?? DOUBLE CHECK

Now this is optional, but I do it. I take some OMC gasket sealer and put it on each drain plug. That stops corrosion and small water leaks. Replace the drain plugs in the engine and manifolds. I then fill the engine with -100 AF by, reconnecting the big hose on the bottom of the water pump, and disconnecting it at the top. I fill it from the top of the hose till I see AF at the neck of the thermo housing. There is no need to remove the thermostat do do this.
Then reconnect the top of that hose. Next I disconnect the feed hoses to each manifold, and fill them with af till it runs out the exhaust. Reconnect the hoses. OK, engine drained, full of -100 AF. NOTICE, I did not say, to hook up a tank full of AF to run it in the engine, that little short cut can cost you an engine if the thermostat does not open all the way (and on a cool fall day it might not). This method can work with closed cooling but its risky because if the impeller can't suck up the more dense than water antifreeze, it can burn the impeller and the engine overheats while you are trying to winterize. Not good. SO if you want to use AF to reduce corrosion, do it my way.


Next the drive, drain the drive oil and look for milky oil. If you see that take the drive to the mechanic to get resealed. If not you are lucky and replace the drain and fill gaskets and put in new gear oil. My Cobra has 3 drains on the pivot housing I have to drain, some older Volvo SXs have them too.

I remove the drive the next weekend and check for water in the bellows and gear oil, if there's water you need a bellows, if gear oil you need an input shaft seal.

I also take off the fuel filter and dump the gas in a glass jar and let it sit. If it has a layer of water I'd think about pumping out the bottom layer of gas in the tank. I put a new filter on filled with gas. Don't forget to oil the gasket.

I clean the boat well, and put in moisture absorbers. Charge the batts every few months during the winter, and I open up the winter cover on nice days to let it air out. Take out anything that can hold moisture like life jackets, lines, etc. Prop open storage compartments like bow seats, cabin doors etc.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:26 pm 
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NiagaraChillin wrote:
More, better experienced gents will be along soon with more, better tips.


Knew it wouldn't be long....great post Lou!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:51 am 
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Goldfish

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Got it! Thanks Lou. If I take it to my Four Winns dealer will they be that detailed? Not worried about cost just want it done right!! You know how that goes though, If you want it done right just do it yourself....Just wondering if that was an option.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:08 am 
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If you are going to run on the hose, avoid doing it with the outdrive all the way up. This can stress the u-joints

Also, if you are leaving the outdrive on for the winter, run the lower unit all the way down before pulling the batteries to relieve stress on bellows.

Definitely pull the batteries and keep them on some type of charger/maintainer all winter so that they are ready to go next year.

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2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:06 pm 
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jdclay wrote:
Got it! Thanks Lou. If I take it to my Four Winns dealer will they be that detailed? Not worried about cost just want it done right!! You know how that goes though, If you want it done right just do it yourself....Just wondering if that was an option.

You'd have to ask them to find out what their winterization covers. Some places just do the minimum, like fogging the engine and draining the water out. There is basic maintenance that should be done at that time such as the motor oil/filter change and drive oil change. In addition, removing the drive to check the bellows, u-joints and gimble bearing is listed in most maintenance manuals as a yearly thing. Many people don't do it but if the bellows leaks it will lead to problems, for one, water gets in the boat. For another, the dampness in the bellows will rust the gimble bearing and ujoints and will also rust the driveshaft. This will cause the input shaft seal to leak and then your drive will be low on gear oil (you won't see it because it leaks IN the bellows). If you leave the drive on long enough, the driveshaft can rust into the engine coupler. This can make it very difficult to remove the drive, without brute force or worse. I am a salt water boater so I do it every year. It has saved me a lot of money.

so call them and ask, and keep in mind, you don't have to have a FW dealer do it, any dealer that services your engine package be it Merc or Volvo can do it.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:29 pm
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Location: Springfield, MA
Hi Everyone I just joined the group too! There is a beautiful (to me anyway) former Dock Queen taking up most of my side yard, a '95 Vista 258! For years she was the fastest party barge that rarely got to strut her stuff but that will change next spring! Although I don't think I'll tackle winterizing the 258 (well this year anyway) you have provided me with the best information and the right questions to ask when I take her in to the boatyard. Although most professionals treat me respectfully I still have to assert myself so as not to be taken lightly. Since I'm in Western Mass can you reccommend the right anti- freeze? Thanks!!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Knotty Gull wrote:
Since I'm in Western Mass can you reccommend the right anti- freeze? Thanks!!

Keep in mind, that for the engine, antifreeze is only needed for corrosion protection, for freeze protection you are having the engine and manifolds drained. Like I said above the only 100% safe way to use antifreeze is to manually drain the engine first and then back fill it and the manifolds with antifreeze. I use -100 for the engine because it has the most corrosion inhibitors. For your water system I'd drain and blow out the lines if possible. But I have never had a boat with a sink or real toilet so I'd have to defer to the cruiser owners here.......

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Lou, thanks for the great write up,

Getting good at standing on my head working on the boat today, got the oil changed, drive oil and started draining the engine of water.

First dumb question, why can't one just open the thermostat and run anti-freeze through the system till it comes out the exaust? (I am doing it your way but wondering why occasionaly :) )

Here are some pictures, the thermostat here has become one with the housing, working on getting it out with some penetrating oil as I type. Can I assume the rest of the cooling system looks the same way, and is it a problem? (does everyone else's look this way as well? Water flowed free and clear from the drain plugs on side of engine, just looks like the thermostat housing has never been pulled.

Where is the best place to order a new thermostat and hoses, local shops don't stock it so may as well order on line.

thanks for tips and help.

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photo 3.JPG by millerjont, on Flickr

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photo 4.JPG by millerjont, on Flickr

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1998 four Winns Horizon H200
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Newtown, CT
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Your motor looks pretty much the same as mine. I don't see much flaking rust in that housing which is good. The other part of the cooling system that can be trouble some is the risers, the cooling ports can get clogged with flaking rust (can cause an overheated exhaust--dangerous) and the sealing surface for the gasket between the manifold and riser can get eroded which causes water leaks in the cylinder. The thermostat is held in the housing by a rubber ring that fits into the groove in the housing, you pry it out with a small screwdriver. I put on a new gasket and coat it in gasket sealer that does not harden like OMC gasket sealer. I put the same stuff on the bolts. They do not seize up in place even with salt water use.

To answer your question, yes you could use the suck AF up the drive method if you either removed the 'stat, or drained the block first, but the reason why I recommend against it is, that one, what if a thermostat housing bolt happens to snap when you are removing it, that would kind of ruin your day while winterizing. You can't just open the thermostat it will open and close based on the temp of the engine. Just so you all know, the 160 stat used on most Volvos and late model Mercs starts to open at 160 and is fully open at 180. So what does that tell you? Well if your engine does not get any hotter than 160 on the hose, the stat may not be all the way open and all the water may not cycle out of the block.....my engine with a properly functioning 'stat, will run at 160 on the hose, mabye a bit higher like 165, but I don't think the stat is fully open.


The other reason is that keep in mind that antifreeze is more dense than water. That's what an antifreeze hydrometer measures, the difference in specific gravity between pure water and AF. Then when you run the engine on the water hose, your house pressure is forcing the water up in the hose that leads to the impeller housing, which helps it to prime. Using AF, which has to gravity feed from the tank, may not allow the pump to prime, which may cause the impeller to burn up. Again, ruining your day. I figured out a way to do this, using a live well pump to pressurize the flow of AF from the tank but I'd only do this with a closed cooled engine. So my way is more fool proof and you get all the water out and get the AF in without other problems.

Keep in mind, many people do not use AF at all, all they do is drain, and that is fine for freeze protection. AF just adds some corrosion protection.

The Volvo impeller needs water or AF right at the pump to prime. On an Alpha drive, with the impeller in the lower unit, it may prime more easily. The one time I tried this with just the tank, even my Cobra with the impeller in the upper gear housing of the drive had trouble priming.

So I recommend this method because I know it works, it is also what the OMC and Merc shop manuals I have read recommend and people won't have problems doing it this way AS LONG AS THEY GET ALL THE WATER OUT........
And BTW, as far as I know, none of the major I/O manufacturers ever recommended that suck AF up the drive method, for raw water cooled engines, that is something that can work on a closed cooled engine, provided that the impeller can suck up the AF and prime properly. Some marinas do it this way as they re winterizing lots of boats in a short time, but they have big tanks that they run the drive in and re-circulating the AF that way keeps it hot enough so that the thermostat stays open. Could one rig up something like this? Sure you could, but the drain and backfill method is easy (as long as the plugs come out) and fool proof.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
hold the hose up and fill it with no tox antifreeze till it comes out the drive water intakes,

<<<Where are these>>>??

that will also push water out of the PS cooler. These coolers have drains but they can be very tough to get at. Next, pull off the bottom end of the big hose on the circulating pump on the front of the engine. Lots of water will drain out. On some Volvos, you should pull the hose from the impeller housing to the thermo housing, let that drain too. Some 4.3 V6s have a square plug drain on the front of the intake manifold. Look for it, mine does not have that though. OK the engine is drained. Sure you got all the plugs and hoses?? DOUBLE CHECK
quote]



Thanks again for taking time to write this up for new guys, Im a little flumoxed as I was hoping to finish this up today before heading to work for the weekend but will wait now till I get the new thermostat etc.

Hypothertically...If I forgot to fog the engine before pulling water lines would you put it all back together, run and fog then re-drain? Don't really mind doing it but wondering how big a deal fogging the motor is, assume its for corrosion/moisure protection in the intake manifold which would be nice. (and things always go faster the second time we know)

Talking about first freeze up here tomorrow night :(

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Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
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untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Drive water intakes, you know, the holes in the lower unit where the cooling water gets sucked in. When you fill the raw water intake hose that you disconnected from the imprller housing with AF, you should see AF run out of the holes in the lower unit on the ground. That's why you use no-tox AF......
As far as where to get a Thermo and gasket, any Volvo service shop has to stock those parts. I get 90% of my parts from a local shop that was an OMC dealer and still sells parts.

So you forgot to fog..... Remove the spark plugs and spray fogging oil in the cylinders. I put a piece of duct tape on the spray wand so if it flys off, it can't get stuck in a cylinder,lol THAT would also ruin the day.... X

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Thats what I was assuming but we all know what one gets when we assume,

Good call on taping the sprayer......


I honestly think I am going to button her all up and run it one more time and fog it, seeing as I am waiting for a thermostat in the mail.....

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Jon Miller
1998 four Winns Horizon H200
Volvo Penta 4.3 GL
Newtown, CT
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untitled-545 by millerjont, on Flickr


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