drama at the lake

ric · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:27 pm

So... On this small 500 acre lake I live on you'd think it was a reality Tv show. The local hang out spot is an apartment complex with a beach that they created without a permit... so we pull our boats up and hang out. I guess they got tired of it and hired an off duty Florida Highway Patrol officer to say we couldn't be but 50 feet offshore. Well, I'm friends with tenants of the complex and they said I was a guest. After a week of their off duty police officer failing to kick us off due to the law on our side, they decided to call in the Florida FWC, which is king of Florida waters. FWC came out today and had a good ole time. They checked our papers and such, normal no big deal. They said are you a guest of the property and I said yes and had a tenant vouch for me in person... and they said cool have a nice day enjoy your stay.......

So this apartment complex is furious for some reason after 5 years years they don't want boats pulling up anymore. They said they are going to rope off a "swimming area", in which they don't have a permit for and in which they don't own the water and can't tell us boaters where we can and can't go on the water. It's a mess.

Sorry for the rant/story.. It's stupid drama, but as a boater I respect my rights and I won't let people tell me to do something I can legally do.

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:02 am

Is this the apartment complex in question that you all have taken over as your own? I could see why some would be pissed.

But, then again, I wouldn't object to seeing this. I would imagine there was a change in management and a women is now in charge.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:26 am

Yes, a woman is now in charge. :mrgreen:

I checked all the laws though, and verified with the state. We are not breaking any. Ironically, the apartment complex is. Their sandy beach does not have a permit and is in violation with the state (they claim they have permits for it, but we checked with the state and they don't). They also claim they have permits to install a swim barrier on their unpermitted beach, in which they can't do because in Florida no land owner owns the water. They can not rope off a section of state owned property for their own use. I checked on that too. If they do install one anyways, I am going to run it over with my boat, hope it ruins my prop and sue.

rpengr · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:51 am

Ric, I would check where there property ends. It might end 30-50ft back from the water's edge, and the rest might right-of-way.

What is the name of the lake?

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:51 am

I called and verified with the local property appraiser's office and FWC. Their property line ends at the high water mark. They can not install anything in the lake. I run the Lake Howell facebook page with 200 followers I just posted this:

FYI: In the past two weeks The Harbor at Lake Howell has been doing some things that everyone needs to be aware of:

First, they moved in a Florida Highway Patrol officer and offered him discounted rent to provide security services around the pool/beach area. He's been harassing residents, guests, and boaters. He's out by the pool wearing his badge and gun in his swimming shorts. This has been reported to the FHP and said Officer was not there yesterday so I think that issue has been resolved.

Second, they are trying to tell boaters which are guests of paying residents they can not park their boats on the sandy beach. I have spoken with the Fish and Wildlife Commission. If we are guests of the property, they can not stop you from pulling your boat up on the beach. I suggest getting a written letter from the tenant you are visiting that you are a guest and keep it handy.

Third, They now claim they are going to install a roped off swim area in front of the sandy beach to limit boats from coming on shore. I spoke with the Seminole Property Appraiser's office and the FWC over this matter. The Harbor at Lake Howell property line ends at the waters edge. They can not legally install any barriers in the lake water as they do not own any land under the lake. The Harbor at Lake Howell can not restrict the water in front of their complex. If they do start construction of said barrier in the water the appropriate authorities will be called to have it removed swiftly.

Forth, consumption of alcoholic beverages. The Harbor at Lake Howell can only restrict alcoholic beverages in common areas if it states so in their lease. As a guest you have to abide by the rules set forth in the lease of the tenant you are visiting. A lease would have to be checked to verify if it's in there or not. I'll come back with an answer later.

To sum it all up.. Keep enjoying Lake Howell and visiting our friends at The Harbor at Lake Howell. Ignore the threats from the Harbor Management. I do suggest getting a written letter that you are a guest of the property from the person you are visiting just in case any LEO's are called you can prove your legal right to be there so they can not trespass you off the property. If you are not a guest of a tenant, you can still legally anchor your boat 3 foot off their shoreline, just don't touch their beach with your boat/anchor and be aware of the fact they can have you trespassed off their property if you enter it.

joet · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:41 pm

Why would you need a letter from the tenant that you are visiting when they will be there with you? It sounds like you are using the premises when the tenant is not there and claiming that they gave you permission as their guest. If that is the case I can see where the complex would have a gripe.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:12 pm

joet wrote:

Why would you need a letter from the tenant that you are visiting when they will be there with you? It sounds like you are using the premises when the tenant is not there and claiming that they gave you permission as their guest. If that is the case I can see where the complex would have a gripe.

No, they are there. It was just advised from the FWC to carry a letter to avoid any chance of confusion or strong arming from the local PD.

TX H210SS · **Joined:** Thu May 27, 2010 9:10 am **Posts:** 1488

So y'all are actually on the apartment property? Beaching and hanging on the beach area that is their property. I don't know laws in Florida, but in Texas the property owner or their agents can request you leave, regardless of what a tenant may say. Failure to comply is criminal trespass, punishable by up to 6 months in jail and up to 500 fine.

Wonder how many other residents are complaining that non residents are filling the beach area? Like people with kids who want to play and swim but they got y'all hogging the private beach, boating next to it and threatening to run thru swim area barricades.

Don't be too cocky...if they had swim area with people out there and you intentionally ram thru with your boat.....I would take you to jail and impound your boat as evidence until case was over and appeal period was over. Good luck with your boater rights argument in criminal court. Before you claim accidental remember you just posted your intent.

Why not fix up your own area instead of trying to justify using a place you have no right to.....hears an idea....go to gulf and drop anchor next to an aircraft carrier....its public water and its your right no matter how many holes they poke in ya.

deafwish · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:16 am

Apologies in advance to be generalising, but your mentality on the legal system has really poisoned many other counties legal systems.
Heck, if I'd invested millions in an Aussie apartment complex & I had an issue with loitering, my fists and a shovel would solve most disputes.

Just sayin...

ric · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:03 am

Well, that's just how it works around here. State law favors the tenant.

I understand they don't like the idea of boats hanging out on their property, but... their apartment complex is on a lake. They have a boat ramp. They have an illegal man made beach. They have BBQ grills on said beach. They have a volleyball court setup on said beach. They've built a local attraction and people pay good money ($1200/m usd for a 2 bedroom) to live on the property to use those amenities. Nobody swims in the lake, the pool is 100ft away. The lake is shallow and full of weeds, the best you get in there is dogs (which are not allowed per their rules).

I got clarification on them building a "swimming area" and it would take the passing of a County statute to allow it. Considering they have a non-permitted sandy beach which violates the Department of Environmental Protection and they do not own the land under the water.. Never going to happen, even if they did get permission from the land owner (which is a trust).

My guess? They have a good history of violating local laws. They might just attempt to install a swim barrier anyways, which would be in violation of my legal rights to access public/state water. I really hope they do, I'm in the mood to win a lawsuit.

rpengr · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:43 am

TX H210SS wrote:

So y'all are actually on the apartment property? Beaching and hanging on the beach area that is their property. I don't know laws in Florida, but in Texas the property owner or their agents can request you leave, regardless of what a tenant may say. Failure to comply is criminal trespass, punishable by up to 6 months in jail and up to 500 fine.

Wonder how many other residents are complaining that non residents are filling the beach area? Like people with kids who want to play and swim but they got y'all hogging the private beach, boating next to it and threatening to run thru swim area barricades.

Don't be too cocky...if they had swim area with people out there and you intentionally ram thru with your boat.....I would take you to jail and impound your boat as evidence until case was over and appeal period was over. Good luck with your boater rights argument in criminal court. Before you claim accidental remember you just posted your intent.

Why not fix up your own area instead of trying to justify using a place you have no right to.....hears an idea....go to gulf and drop anchor next to an aircraft carrier....its public water and its your right no matter how many holes they poke in ya.

Well said. I support Ric's right to use the lake right up to the property line, but once they beach or cross the high water mark, they are on private property, and become a guest of the community, not one individual tenant. They must abide by the rules of the community, including behavior and consumption of alcohol.

ric · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:39 am

rpengr wrote:

TX H210SS wrote:

So y'all are actually on the apartment property? Beaching and hanging on the beach area that is their property. I don't know laws in Florida, but in Texas the property owner or their agents can request you leave, regardless of what a tenant may say. Failure to comply is criminal trespass, punishable by up to 6 months in jail and up to 500 fine.

Wonder how many other residents are complaining that non residents are filling the beach area? Like people with kids who want to play and swim but they got y'all hogging the private beach, boating next to it and threatening to run thru swim area barricades.

Don't be too cocky...if they had swim area with people out there and you intentionally ram thru with your boat.....I would take you to jail and impound your boat as evidence until case was over and appeal period was over. Good luck with your boater rights argument in criminal court. Before you claim accidental remember you just posted your intent.

Why not fix up your own area instead of trying to justify using a place you have no right to.....hears an idea....go to gulf and drop anchor next to an aircraft carrier....its public water and its your right no matter how many holes they poke in ya.

Well said. I support Ric's right to use the lake right up to the property line, but once they beach or cross the high water mark, they are on private property, and become a guest of the community, not one individual tenant. They must abide by the rules of the community, including behavior and consumption of alcohol.

I totally agree, I am a guest and I have to abide by the rules set forth by the property in their lease. That I'm 100% cool with. I'm not okay with them hiring off duty officers to enforce fake rules to deny me access to public property, and now threatening to install a roped off barrier in the water which violates a handful of laws. I will not let them do that. I volunteer with the county every year to help plant and clean up the lake. I'm an active law abiding tax paying member of society and some property management company isn't going to strong arm us and deny us access to something they have no right to enforce.

Walt · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:39 am

This is funny... I am picturing a lake about the size of a city block, and Ric in his boat running in circles at idle.

Easy solution that makes everyone happy... GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!

I was tired of the drunks and wave-crashers that are a fixture of my area lakes... instead of complaining and threatening lawsuit, I went to a 2300 mile body of water that is free to use, and closer to my house that has very few drunks and even fewer wave runners.

neutron · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:18 pm

Walt wrote:

Easy solution that makes everyone happy... GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!

sums it best!

NiagaraChillin · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:35 pm

Geez fellas, I don't see one thing ric has wrote in this thread that puts him in the wrong. He is following all the rules of the complex, the state, and of decorum. If anyone else was experiencing this, you all would be jumping up and down with positive comments and a show of support. But because it is ric, you all come running in here pissing yourselves to be the first to tell him how wrong he is and how you would tell him "whats up" if he was trying this in your state.

The only advice I would offer ric, is to make sure and video any encounters you (and other guests) have with the management. Oh, and please don't run thru any swim barricade they may put up. I understand protest, but safety is always first.

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drama at the lake

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