www.iFourWinns.com

Seems most boat manufacturers always come out with their winter "incentives" to help the push through boat show season. Sometimes it's a rebate... sometimes an extended warranty... etc...

Anyone know or have heard what FW might have on tap for the shows this year?

And coincidentally, I have heard that FW is pretty standard about a price increase at the beginning of each year... Anyone heard anything about that?

I know there was a price increase in September from what the pre-official 08 pricing was (which is what I got). And it seems that there could be one on Jan1?

Any ideas? Any dealers pushing to "get your order in before the price increase"?

_________________

2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

FW went up at the beginning of '06 and '07. However, the price of gas and perceptions about the economy (notice I did not say facts) are surely putting pressure on mfr's to keep prices down.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

I've heard that the FW rebates from last year will be back again this year.... amount varies on size of the boat of course.

As for price increases - they did have an increase at the end of September when the 08's really started hitting showrooms. I am sure they would rather not have an increase, but with crude oil and metals up (as they always are) - it may be unavoidable.

Four Winns has a profit margin to uphold... dealers have a margin to uphold... which means we (the consumer) gets to deal with it.

_________________

2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Very true, up to a point. FW's bread & butter is in building very good boats - but not boats that are bought by people to whom money is no object. The increases of the past three years have been very significant IMO. MSRP on my boat, equipped identically, went up $10,300 from '05 to '08 - an annualized ~6% per year increase. Even at typical+ discounts, that's over $8,000 more for the exact same boat in just 3 years. I just don't think they can keep up those increases indefinitely even when the economy is perceived to be good (which it actually is, but people don't think it is). I'm not begrudging them their profit or even accusing them of being unfair; as you point out, material costs are off-scale high now. As with all things, it'll be "whatever the market will bear" - I'm just not sure how much more it will bear, without reducing production significantly.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

From a business point of view, I work with many manufacturers of many products. Most are willing to sell thier product, even at a slight loss, just to keep the lines moving and workers employed. This is done until production and demand have stabilized, either by reducing production, or the increase in demand. Understand, the places I work with don't manufacture luxury items such as boats; but tires, cement, adhesives, oil refineries, and even food.
Case in point, I went to a dealer on Lake of the Ozarks to purchase a boat that is way too small for that demographic (yes 21' is very small for this lake!), knowing they have to keep such boats on thier lots per FW policy. They also were going thru the transition from '07 to '08 models, as well as rebuilding from an ice storm the previous year, and moving from one location to another.
Doing your homework on the market, as well as comparing and watching individual dealers can be very beneficial. Mike/Paul, we have KC marine that recently started selling FW, but they are not advertising very well even on thier website. Not even the main FW site lists them as a dealer. However, they gave me a price, and indicated that model would be on the lot soon when I was shopping.
I would expect deals similar to what I recieved for the short term. Besides knocking off the cost of the motor upgrade, and Wakeboard tower, 4 year extended warranty was included. These items are less tangible to the actual production cost of the boat. However, the extras are where they get to set thier boat apart from other dealers, and where the individual dealer actually makes the money.
Once production and demand are in line with one another, I expect the profiteering to resume for these luxury items.

_________________
Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.

I don't think Four Winns have been raising prices in the name of profiteering.

Four Winns has been trying to reposition themselves in the boating industry as more of an elite brand. If you look at their specific investments in quality, new features, etc - they have made great strides in this push. A great example, 3 years ago the equivalent 240 had a molded plastic dash where now they have a stiched and luxurious padded dash.

Four Winns has always been a "premium" brand - but it's only now that they are starting to make a push to move higher towards cobalt, formula, etc.

The amound of money they are investing in R&D, materials, testing, quality control is far hgiher than they used to - thus you see more significant price increases.

That being said, the customer to dealer incentives are always the win for a buyer. As Walt noted, understanding market/regional conditions is one of the keys to the "sweetest" deals. Margins on larger boats tend to be 30-40% between invoice and MSRP. That's the profit for the dealer. What do you guys think margin is for a boat manufacturer? I would guess much less (around 15-20% or so) -- purely because of all the costs associated to running a business.... A manufacturer has to have that "pad" to support fluxuations in raw materials pricing, changes in the organization, or added costs beyond budget (warranty, support, etc).

Not to mention that the cost of raw materials is going up exponentially over the last couple years. The cost of stainless is way up... I don't even need to mention the cost of raw oil (which affects almost every part of a boat).

Are there any boat manufacturers that have not raised prices significantly over the last 3-5 years?

_________________

2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

I'm sure there aren't; my comments apply to any of the mid-priced boat manufacturers. I agree with all the points made, but the question still remains: if pricing of these boats keeps increasing at this rate (regardless of the underlying reasons), at what point would you decide that you couldn't afford to buy a new one? At what point would you decide either to pursue a different pastime, buy used instead of new, or visit your local Bayliner dealer? 99% of the population has such a point somewhere on the price line.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

I believe Genmar wants a Brand “Four Winn” to be head to head with Bryant, Regal, and higher than Sea Ray level. Therefore they are focusing in details and quality in last few years.
I feel 08 H series (Horizon) is overall little better quality than my old 06. The Base cost went up but there are more items which was option before are now on standard.
Genmar has Glastron and Larson to be more price point product and I can see a little trend here.
Four Winns is only producing about 6000 units a year and as long as retail price of Four Winns will be similar level as Sea Ray or Regal there will be demands for new boats.
I like to believe there always will be someone willing to spend their money for new boats.

_________________

08 H260 VP 8.1Gi DP.....Previous
2013 Crownline E6 Merc 8.2MAG BIIIX, DTS/SC

I would expect to see incentives more dealer driven than factory driven. If a particular dealer has quite a few leftovers, he may offer more of a deal than one that does not have a huge inventory. The factory will help dealers with incentives on new boats, but it is not known at this time what they will be.

_________________
One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Pricing is interesting. At the St Pete boat show at the end of Nov the FW dealer had a new V288 there with a Show Price of a mear $159600. The boat is equipped no different than mine. The changes are the new VP outdrives, the change of the forward v-berth in mine to a fixed berth and the new designed helm (which I don't care for). Oh ya, the other half of the helm seat flips up too. That price is $54000 more than I paid for my '04.

I don't know how much more the market can take price increases. Although, the boat show was buzzzing and a lot of larger boats were getting sold.

_________________
Jvalich
http://www.badcock.com

'04 FW 288 Vista "Mental Floss"

I'm curious as well. I did just buy mine about 2 months ago now. I'll be at the sports show here in 2 weeks. Mike/Paul, are you guys gonna be there?

_________________
Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.

I also wonder what the "leftover" numbers look like for 2007's.... I recently checked my local dealer's website on inventory... When I really tried to buy a boat locally (ended up going across the country) - my local dealer had 1 260 and 4 240's. This was in early/mid August and as far back as late July when I initially started investigating.

As of yesterday, the dealer apparently hasn't sold any of the 5 yet. I can see why as they were priced about 7-10k too much.

The Seattle boat show will be end of January for us... I'm interested to see how the sales are going.

Plus, I'm still waiting to see if prices go up in January from FW.

_________________

2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

It's hard to draw any conclusions based on my (small) dealer, because they seem to try to keep as little inventory on hand as possible and still be able to sell boats. I could say they only have a few models, and only one of each, but for them that would be normal.

Walt, I don't know yet about the SportShow. These days it seems I can't plan anything more than 2 hours ahead . I missed it last year, though, so hopefully I can make it.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic

Price increases on new boats are only a problem if you are now shopping for a new boat strictly by price. I realize that this is a lousy statement but it is really true. Four Winns has raised the quality and finish on their boats significantly in the past 5-10yrs. This comes with a price. If you are shopping for a boat stricly on price go buy a Bayliner. I have seriously compared Sea Ray boats to Four Winns and FW is very competitively priced. I am in a marina that is 10ft from a SeaRay dealer. There are almost 800 boats in the marina and better than 1/2 are SeaRay. I have seen maybe 5 Four Winns in the whole marina. Buying a SeaRay would have been a whole lot easier. Getting service would have been a whole lot easier. (my servicing dealer is 1hr away vs 2 minutes away). Four Winns makes a nicer boat at a very competitive price.

I welcome reasonable yearly price inceases for many reasons:

1. It keeps Four Winns a strong viable company. With cash you can spend money on research and development to make my next boat purchase an even better product.

2. With cash you can offer better customer service and be able to do the right things for customers without having to watch every penny. Four Winns has always given me outstanding service even on items out of warrantee. A cash strapped company cannot afford to do the right things for its customer.

3. Resale value remains high on used Four Winns in part due to the higher cost of buying a new boat. When I go to sell my boat in a few years, I want a new V338 to be 25-35% more than today. I want the buyer of my used boat to see the value in buying a well kept used boat vs the price of a new boat.

Enjoy price increases. They are for our own good.

_________________
07 Tiara Sovran 4300
07 338 Vista - SOLD

In the case of our boat, I would buy the $10,000+ increase for "increased quality" when comparing today's 240 to the 230's produced 10 years ago. I don't buy it when comparing to 230's produced 3 years ago. I see no difference during that time frame, other than minor year-to-year trim changes, a new dash (which I frankly don't care for), and even more minor trailer updates. I think this argument applies to most of the models across the line, but of course it doesn't apply to new models introduced in the last year or two.



I agree with the intent of your point, but unless you're talking strictly about warranty issues, service is all about your dealer, not FW. Some dealers are great on service and customer service issues, and some aren't - regardless of where the manufacturer sets the prices of their boats. I don't believe dealers see much of the additional cash from price increases, in fact they'll be the first to suffer if those increases cause a drop in sales - which is exactly the scenario I'm seeing in some of the dealers around here.

I'm not criticizing FW; I love ours and would buy another if quality of the boat were the only consideration. I can honestly say that based on quality and design, I'd sooner buy another FW before I'd buy a Cobalt, if money were no object. But if we were shopping for a new 240 today - equipped exactly the same as ours, built 3 years ago, and unimproved since then - there's a good chance we would not buy it based on today's price. This isn't a narrow-minded view, it's recognition of the fact that it's more money than we're comfortable paying for what it is.

You want a 35% increase on a 338 in just a few years ("few" meaning ~3 to most people)? That statement makes me wonder if you're in that tiny group of people who can and will buy regardless of price. If a 10% per year increase is good, wouldn't a 50% per year increase be better?

Said another way, many people these days don't get 6% pay increases reliably every year, let alone 10%. If a family has been kicking tires the last few years trying to decide whether or not to jump in, these increases may push them out. Again, I realize that little (if any) of the increases are profiteering on FW's part.

I mentioned today in another forum that we've occasionally considered selling. The bottom line for us is that if we were to sell, it would only be after we feel certain that we won't ever want to be boat owners again. Compared to the way boat prices are going now, the one we have is a bargain and we won't be able to afford another new one.

I respect everyone's opinions on this, I just think the increases are too much, too fast for a lot of folks.

_________________


Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic