www.iFourWinns.com

As some may recall here, we bought a used Vista 378 in May 2009 from a large mid-western dealer. Just 2 weeks ago I received a call from an investment company in Arizona. This company bought a loan from a Wisconsin bank. This company claims they are in first position with a lien on the boat even though my title only lists my lender. Their lawyer sent me a letter saying pay off the loan, $282,500 @ 11.5% since 2007 and penalties or they will start proceedings to seize the boat.

My attorney said we would likely lose the boat and have to sue the dealer. I can't share everything I know on a public forum but it appears the dealer found out about the second mortgage on this boat back in 2009, approx. 5 months after the sale. They never contacted us saying that there is a problem. It's going to be expensive paying for a maritime attorney, but I don't have a choice. Hopefully we prevail and get back the value of the boat plus money invested, attorney fee's and the strong possibility of punitive damages according to our attorney. Wish us luck, this just sucks. We bought from a reputable dealer instead of a private sale to avoid these kind of issues.

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2011 Horizon SS210
Mercruiser 377 MAG MPIC/Bravo l DTS 320 h.p.
PowerTech! OFS4 16-pitch SS 4 blade Propeller
2012 Ford King Ranch V6 eco-boost-Tow Vehicle

I don't know what state you live in but I would also contact the Attorney Generals Office in reference to the matter. They should help you with the investigation and the Courts. If the Dealer had knowledge of this prior to the sale. God help them. Punitive Damages big time.

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2003 268 Four Winns Vista
F-350 King Ranch Diesel (Tow)
1990 Four Winns Fredom 180

Since you are in Wisconsin like me can we ask What dealer? I am assuming you being in Madison it was Skipper Buds?

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1998 Baja Boss 252 7.4L MPI Bravo 1 (SOLD)
2007 FW H200SS 5.0GXI (Sold)
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500 Crew 6.0L (tow vehicle)
1991 FW 170 Freedom 4.3L (SOLD)

Good luck. Hopefully the dealer would work with you to help sort this mess out. They've bought a lot of repo'd boats recently and I can't imagine that they would make you shoulder the burden for their screw up. It seems as though they sold the boat without holding full legal claim to it and would be on the hook for settling up with the second bank.

As you said, it just sucks that you would need to defend yourself for what should be a pretty basic transaction.

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-Rob.


Current boat: 2011 Yamaha AR210
Previous boat: 1998 Horizon RX 4.3GL SX

Wow.. that's insane! So the boat was never USCG documented?

If you don't have too much invested in the boat and are 100% sure that you can win a lawsuit maybe it would be cheaper to just let them have the boat back. I think the judge may lay blame on you for not checking thoroughly the history of the boats for liens. I can see this being a three way legal battle that will cost everybody $. You will sue the dealer who will sue the previous owner (possible deadbeat with no $) and in the meantime you are defending yourself against the Original mortgage holder.

Think it all over real good before you commit to the lawyers. Good Luck.

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Marc, Kathlin & Nathalie


'89 Chaparral Laser 32

'93 Vista 245, 5.8L w/ King Cobra

Former Boats
'01 H260, 7.4 VP Duoprop
'98 H200, 5.0 GL w/VP SX drive

So the original owner's loan rate was 11.5%!!! No wonder the dumbass let it go back. What was he thinking? More importantly, what was the Wisconsin Bank thinking? Did they actually think someone would pay $3,000 a month for a boat for 15 - 20 years? They ought to shut that dealer down as what he did was fraud because that boat should have gone back to the original lender (or whoever took them over). Too bad they don't issue owner's title insurance on boat transactions like they do on home purchases.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

It is a complete mess and I agree only the attorneys will come out. However, it is up to the new lender to search the title to make sure it was clear. Was the dealer the original dealer who sold the boat to dummy? If so, that dealer has some answering to do because he knew about that lien and hid it from lender #2.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

Two major points that need to be clarified. Not sure if JAK can share the info or not. Both have been mentioned.

1.) I would assume that somewhere along the line a marine title company was involved in the transfer of the boat from the dealer to the new buyer, and should have done a title search.

2.) If the boat was ever documented that would also have established a chain of ownership.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

Thanks for the support guys, saying this is nerve wracking is an understatement. Reading some of the replies makes me wonder if I did something wrong by not checking the National Registry myself.

I'm looking for advice or opinions on the strength of my possible lawsuit. I will not name the dealer yet for two reasons; 1) Something I say may hurt my lawsuit; 2) The dealer called me last week and stated that I bought the boat is good faith and the dealer doesn't want us to lose the boat. They are dealing with the Arizona Investment firm that bought the previous loan. They were given a deadline of the end of this week to come to an agreement to satisfy the lien.

This is what I know and can share. The boat is a 2006 and was purchased new from the dealer in question and was also winter stored at the same location. The folks at the dealership knew him well. The original owner had a loan to purchase this boat in 2006. Somewhere along the line this previous owner got into financial difficulties and decided to sell the boat. I think it is safe to assume that he took out the second loan against the boat in 2007 with no intentions of paying. It's my understanding he never made a payment. The bank that granted the second loan required him to document the boat.

My purchase took place in May 2009. Negotiations had started with the dealer acting as broker. By the time we came to terms and wrote the check to purchase, there is evidence that the dealer had bought the boat from the original owner. The dealer then sold to us. So we are really the third owner including the dealer for 1 day or 1 hour, not sure.

I believe that the dealer did not know about the second lien created in 2007. I do know the dealer found out about it shortly after we purchased and have been hiding under their desk ever since, approx. 1-1/2 years. The dealership satisfied the original loan but never checked the National Registry.

This is my fifth boat purchase from dealerships and I've never conducted my own checks. Thought it was the dealers responsibility? Do you think I'm someone at fault here?

Back to the documentation. The boat prior to our purchase had state registration number, registration sticker on the bow, not on the stern as required and no documentation number inside the hull. I'm sure the dealer and us made that same assumption...state registered, not documented.

Where do you think we stand?

You said the previous owner had it documented to get the 2nd loan. If true, your dealer could have easily found that out with a title search. That should have been done, regardless of whether the dealer knew the original owner or not.

These comments pretty much put all the responsibility on your dealer to take care of the 2nd loan IMO.




Your dealer failed miserably to check with due diligence that the boat was totally free and clear for you to purchase. He had the opportunity, but did not do it. You know what they say when you "assume" something. Your dealer clearly made an ass out of himself, but there is no reason to make you look that way. They need to step up to the plate, pay the 2nd loan off, and you keep your boat with your current lein holder. If it does not go that way, I would find a place quickly to hide your boat, because it is YOUR boat, not some bank in Arizona. Then sue the dealer to the max.

Hopefully you do not have to go that route.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

I find it hard to believe that any lender would do a cash-out refinance on a boat. But, then again, this was 2007 and the height of irresponsible lending. As Cap'n asked, was there a marine title company involved because they might have E&O insurance to pay off the lien due to their overlooking it? IMO, it is either lender #2 who is at fault or the marine title company they hired to search the title. The dealer obviously knew something upfront about the lien given his silence after being notified by the Arizona bank in October 2009. The marine title company needs to pay the Arizona bank off and then sue the dealer. That is how it works in residential real estate. Good luck.

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Current Boat: 2000 Four Winns 298 Vista
Previous Boat: 2000 Carver 406MY

298Vista is on the right track here. Whenever something changes hands (house, boat, etc) the dealer pays a fee to the title company for title insurance. Since the dealer appears to have bought the boat from the original owner, at that time there was title insurance paid by the dealer to the marine title company. That title company should now be paying the Arizona investment company in full. From there, it could get messy as far as JAK getting his lawyer's fees, punitive damages etc. from the dealer.

Thanks for the accurate info 298Vista2000, I'm not real familiar with titles and legal stuff, just trying to interpret from what I have read.
Thanks for setting me straight on how this stuff should work.

This is of great interest to me, as we purchased our Monterey under a very similar scenario this past spring. And I sure don't want some investment firm in Iowa to come back after me and our boat in a year or so. I think we are safe, but this post shows that "Sheet" can happen.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy

This info would have been known to the marine title company and should also have been known by the dealer. Your lawyer will have already found this I am sure, but thought I would post for anyone interested.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista

Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy