There was a lot of people having a bad day yesterday.

mattg · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:20 am

When we were out on the lake yesterday, I could not believe the number of broken boats that were being towed off. There was at least 12 to 15 boats / jet skis that were towed off, the boats were old and new. At one point we were sitting back in a cove between the main part of the lake and a boat launch. There was a pontoon towing another pontoon making a large wake in a no wake zone. I was going to say something until the pontoon being towed passed us and I noticed that it was sinking. The right rear pontoon was down in the water, and by the time he got to the dock the back right corner of the boat was touching the water. He ended up getting it on the trailer. I think it has something to do with the heatwave we've been going through this past week. Everyone just wanted on the water, even if the boat might not of been ready.

LouC · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:50 pm

has your area just switched over to E-10 gas? if so that could by why....

wkearney99 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:04 pm

LouC wrote:

has your area just switched over to E-10 gas? if so that could by why....

Unlikely. More likely just rushed to get them into the water without proper maintenance.

mattg · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:44 pm

wkearney99 wrote:

LouC wrote:

has your area just switched over to E-10 gas? if so that could by why....

Unlikely. More likely just rushed to get them into the water without proper maintenance.

What is "E-10 Gas"" I'm guessing the 10% Ethanol, that's what our marinas carry. I guess it's hard to get the regular gas even though they are allowed.
I would have to agree with you, some of the boats looked a little older, but on the other hand a couple looked brand new.

LouC · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:10 pm

If so many boats had trouble at the same time, I'd more likely suspect a common cause such as bad gas, the season has been underway for a few months now and most boaters would have had enough time to get their boats ready. E-10 is more likely to cause trouble in older boats than newer ones, but both can be affected.

wkearney99 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:25 pm

Yeah, and I call bull. Ethanol has it's issues, but it's not the demon some folks insist on making it out to be. Yes, on older boats with aged fuel lines and crappy tanks it can be a big problem. But folks who have those boats are already familiar with this.

I'm no fan of the corn lobby's pressure to force ethanol on us, it's a huge boondoggle. But it's not the biggest reason boats have trouble. Boat have problems when their owners neglect to stay on top of their maintenance. E-10 is the least of their worries.

LouC · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:50 pm

wkearney99 wrote:

Yeah, and I call bull. Ethanol has it's issues, but it's not the demon some folks insist on making it out to be. Yes, on older boats with aged fuel lines and crappy tanks it can be a big problem. But folks who have those boats are already familiar with this.

I'm no fan of the corn lobby's pressure to force ethanol on us, it's a huge boondoggle. But it's not the biggest reason boats have trouble. Boat have problems when their owners neglect to stay on top of their maintenance. E-10 is the least of their worries.

Not sure I agree with you Bill, I question if marine fuel systems really are built to withstand E10. Case in point, my 88 4.3 OMC with a 4bbl Q-Jet, has needed 2 carb rebuilds in about 10 years. We had a 75 Olds with a 350/Q-Jet, that ran on straight gas only, no carb rebuilds in 16 years. And what is supposed to be E-10, because of mistakes in blending, can be as high as E-20 or higher. This has been verified by independent testing here in Long Island.

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:22 am

LouC wrote:

my 88 4.3 OMC with a 4bbl Q-Jet, has needed 2 carb rebuilds in about 10 years

I had my boat tech out this weekend to change plugs and he said ethanol eats aluminum and he has to change out carbs all the time now. He said the stuff is poison to our boats when it sits for a while. I take the increase in breakdowns is because people just don't use their boats enough and when they sit unused, they become a maintenance nightmare all around.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:42 am

It doesn't eat aluminum. I raced power sports with straight methanol for yearsss (e100) and no metal eating ever happened. It's only 10 percent. Even E85 is 100% safe for everything with the 15% fuel mix. That's why it's blended.

Why does your boat run differently with E10? It's a less "powerful" fuel. Alcohol burns slower then gasoline. In order to combat this, you have to add more fuel to the mixture and advance the ignition timing a tad. Any decent boat shop can re-tune your boat for the E10 mixture.

NOTE: If your boat is fuel injected... you don't have to touch a thing.

That being said, E10 can't sit. At all. Let it sit for 2-3 weeks, it's trash and water infused. These products do help
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... tabilizers

Happens to my motorcycle all the time. I don't ride it for 2-3 weeks... drain gas, cause it will just misfire

wkearney99 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:52 pm

I purposefully mentioned older boats in my post. Materials used in older vessels, along with lack of proper maintenance, can be negatively affected by the addition of ethanol. The worst being a very small percentage of fiberglass fuel tanks. Another issue is failing to replace rubber fuel lines or gaskets as per service intervals suggest. They don't last forever. Most manufacturers suggest replacing them, sometimes as soon as five years. Unfortunately some folks have had their hoses or gaskets fail and are convinced it's due to something other than neglect.

For anything made in the last 10 years it's unlikely to be an issue. NONE. Fuel injection and engine management systems handle it and modern materials can take it. Including aluminum tanks.

I've let E-10 gas sit for months over the winter in our 348 and had no issues whatsoever. I do use stabilizer and encourage others to do so as well. I also change my filters each year. I'm sure there are many ways for fuel to have problems. Improperly blended and stored are certainly problems some folks have encountered. How many is debatable.

I'm no fan of ethanol being added to fuels. But I'm even less a fan of ill-informed myths being spread about.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:56 pm

wkearney99 wrote:

I'm even less a fan of ill-informed myths being spread about.

People blame what they don't understand. It's much easier to blame a boat breaking on a new (older then gasoline) technology rather then putting the blame on a boat they abuse and never maintain.

Ethanol has been used as a fuel longer then gasoline. The Model T ford ran on ethanol.

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:13 pm

wkearney99 wrote:

But I'm even less a fan of ill-informed myths being spread about.

Ill-informed myths generated by seasoned boat techs who know what is best for a marine engine? Well it isn't ethanol although they love boaters who use it. My tech is going to send Al Gore a Christmas card this year thanking him for all the work. :lol:

wkearney99 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:10 pm

"Seasoned boat techs", oh now THERE'S a funny comment.

ric · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:58 am

You mean money hungry boat techs. There's nothing wrong with ethanol and boat engines. Engines love ethanol. Ethanol was the first fuel that powered engines. America is the only country that doesn't use it in a mass production scale in higher percentages because of oil hungry presidents. 2 strokes especially love ethanol, but you have to use ethanol friendly oils.

The stuff runs cooler (cooler engine temps) and more power due to the increased compression and ignition allowed due to it's slower burn and higher octane. It doesn't hurt anything, that's all propaganda.

The local performance car scene here in Orlando LOOOOVVVEESSS E85. It's dirt cheap race gas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIkB6Zl1wc8

Why does E10 run bad in boats? Because they're not tuned for it. You HAVE to re-adjust the carb to run E10 correctly. Main thing is to make sure the float is adjusted correctly, and you need to rich the idle a tad. Usually you need to install a bigger main jet and advance the ignition a few degrees. Basically everything a fuel injected engine does automatically.

If someone opened a boat shop/service that specifically tuned boat engines for E10 gas you'd be eating well for a few years. All you need is a basic knowledge in how to tune a carb, a jet kit, and a timing light. Charge $150 for the service, profit $148.

LouC · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:18 am

The main issue that has caused operational difficulties at least here is not the fact that it leans out the mixture somewhat, it's the fact that with a OPEN gas tank vent (unlike vehicles) alcohol's ability to absorb moisture from the atmosphere can result in enough water in the gas tank that it drops out of suspension with the gas+ethanol mixture, then you get phase separation with a layer of water, and ethanol on the bottom of the tank. This gets sucked into the fuel system with bad results. Of course gas stations can have water in their tanks too. And some deck fills leak water into the tank. Since we switched over (I think about 7 years ago) I have had to rebuild the Q-Jet 2x like I said, and I check the fuel separator for water in the gas at each change (winterization) and so far have not had a problem with water in the gas...
To me the main issue with E-10 is the blending process, the oil companies will not ship it through their pipelines (here there is NO straight gas, only E-10) so mixing is done in the tanker trucks and there have been reports of it being off enough that you do not get E-10, but E-15 or E-20. That's partly why there have been problems.

The FAA does not allow E-10 to be used in aircraft as of yet. That alone tells you something. Yes the high octane would be great for aircraft engines at high load all the time, but the moisture absorption issue can have fatal consequences in aircraft. Both planes and boats have open fuel vents. Automotive applications do not. Saying that because cars and trucks can use it with no problems, ignores basic differences in design and engineering.

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There was a lot of people having a bad day yesterday.

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