1996 Horizon 240 engine question

Winter Sux · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:22 pm

Hell, if you're a chopper tech, just make sure your garage has enough verticle clearance. Then buy a manual, rent a cherry picker and the rest will be in the books.

Just for shits and giggles, have you even considered converting it to gas turbine?

ric · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:22 pm

Granted, turbine engines are horribly simple just extremely well engineered tolerances. That being said, an american v8 is extremely well engineered to work with horrible tolerances. You really can't screw it up.

Scott4560 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:40 pm **Posts:** 21

ric wrote:

Granted, turbine engines are horribly simple just extremely well engineered tolerances. That being said, an american v8 is extremely well engineered to work with horrible tolerances. You really can't screw it up.

I tell you what...we used two GE t58 turbo shaft engines in our H-3s. 1500hp a piece and just incredibly simple. Yet, as you explained VERY little tolerances.

Anyone in the KC metro want to come over and help? Will pay in boulevard beer!

Scott4560 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:40 pm **Posts:** 21

Winter Sux wrote:

Hell, if you're a chopper tech, just make sure your garage has enough verticle clearance. Then buy a manual, rent a cherry picker and the rest will be in the books.

Just for shits and giggles, have you even considered converting it to gas turbine?

Any recommendations on manuals?

And I'm finding motors like this on eBay:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... ID=EBAY-US

Any of you have experience buying a motor off of eBay? What can go wrong right? (Little sarcasm there)

TX H210SS · **Joined:** Thu May 27, 2010 9:10 am **Posts:** 1488

http://www.firstmatemarine.net/

This is where I bought mine in prior boat in 2009. Been around for a while, reputable and comes with warranty if work signed off on by certified mechanic for merc/VP marine. I had the 5.7 Carb mercruiser in prior boat and total cost was around 2500 and that included lower unit service, gimble and bellows replacement and Carb rebuild....mechanic moonlights at his home garage.

Swap over parts included exhaust nanifolds, Carb, oil pan, water pump (I got new one), power steering pump, brackets and new motor mounts....can't remember about distributor....basically you get two motor stands and unbolt and rebolt...replace water pump so you don't have to worry about it....then break it in as instructed.

It came with a checklist for proper install requirements. There are a few specialty tools such as engine alignment tool. If not set up for it I would suggest a mechanic with marine experience.

I wouldn't rebuild personally unless you plan on beefing the motor up. It will cost same if not more otherwise and a lot of work. Unless of course that is fun for you to do....i have rebuilt a few motors in years past and getting heads, block, crank etc all machined and resurfaced...new pistons/rings/bushings and ring insertion tool, pullers, ring clamp tools blah blah blah can get pricey if your not setup for that already....and no warranty.

If you were to jump up the HP too much you may be overstepping limits of drive system....that turbine idea would be good if you never want to talk or listen to anything:-)

Others have used some other marine rebuild companies but I can't recall the names.

kd4pbs · **Joined:** Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:34 am **Posts:** 350

I bought a re-manufactured Chebby engine from the local auto parts lackeys for my first boat; a 1978 Cobia Ranger 21' bow rider with an OMC stringer drive. I put a moderate Crane cam in it and swapped over all the marine parts from the old engine (carb, distributor, fuel pump, starter, alternator). I saw it last year and talked with the current owner. The guy that owns it now is the son of the man that bought it from me. 13 years later and she's still running fine. The floor is rotting away, but the engine and drive still work wonderfully.
You're a mechanic, so if I were you, I'd do something like this.
I think the engine ran me somewhere around $800 back then.

ric · **Posted:** Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:51 am

kd4pbs wrote:

I bought a re-manufactured Chebby engine from the local auto parts lackeys for my first boat; a 1978 Cobia Ranger 21' bow rider with an OMC stringer drive. I put a moderate Crane cam in it and swapped over all the marine parts from the old engine (carb, distributor, fuel pump, starter, alternator). I saw it last year and talked with the current owner. The guy that owns it now is the son of the man that bought it from me. 13 years later and she's still running fine. The floor is rotting away, but the engine and drive still work wonderfully.
You're a mechanic, so if I were you, I'd do something like this.
I think the engine ran me somewhere around $800 back then.

A locally rebuilt engine is always cheaper.

What you said about the cam is almost a must do. Why settle for 260hp when a $100 cam can bring your power up to around 320 with no ill side effects.

TX H210SS · **Joined:** Thu May 27, 2010 9:10 am **Posts:** 1488

www.usmarineengine.com

Is another seller...the 351 marine Ford is listed for $1,695 that comes with a 7 year 500 hour warranty gut assume there's fine print involved

Scott4560 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:40 pm **Posts:** 21

TX H210SS wrote:

http://www.firstmatemarine.net/

This is where I bought mine in prior boat in 2009. Been around for a while, reputable and comes with warranty if work signed off on by certified mechanic for merc/VP marine. I had the 5.7 Carb mercruiser in prior boat and total cost was around 2500 and that included lower unit service, gimble and bellows replacement and Carb rebuild....mechanic moonlights at his home garage.

Swap over parts included exhaust nanifolds, Carb, oil pan, water pump (I got new one), power steering pump, brackets and new motor mounts....can't remember about distributor....basically you get two motor stands and unbolt and rebolt...replace water pump so you don't have to worry about it....then break it in as instructed.

It came with a checklist for proper install requirements. There are a few specialty tools such as engine alignment tool. If not set up for it I would suggest a mechanic with marine experience.

I wouldn't rebuild personally unless you plan on beefing the motor up. It will cost same if not more otherwise and a lot of work. Unless of course that is fun for you to do....i have rebuilt a few motors in years past and getting heads, block, crank etc all machined and resurfaced...new pistons/rings/bushings and ring insertion tool, pullers, ring clamp tools blah blah blah can get pricey if your not setup for that already....and no warranty.

If you were to jump up the HP too much you may be overstepping limits of drive system....that turbine idea would be good if you never want to talk or listen to anything:-)

Others have used some other marine rebuild companies but I can't recall the names.

These next questions are definitely going to be novice:

1. What is my drive?

2. Rotation?

3 Lifter type?

I'm seeking a quote from these folks. eBay worries me.

Anyone know a moonlighter mechanic in the Midwest?

LouC · **Posted:** Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:19 am

Post a pic of the engine/drive so we can help out more...as a guess based on the year....you probably have a standard rotation flat tappet engine with a Volvo SX style drive (could be either the joint venture OMC Cobra or the SX but they were identical except for badging).
Keep in mind if you do an engine transplant from a vehicle, that there are marine specific parts you NEED no matter what anyone tells you:
Marine head gaskets esp if you keep it raw water cooled
Marine core plugs the standard ones will corrode and leak same as above.
Marine circulating pump same issue as above.
If you are getting a replacement engine and not rebuilding the old one, I'd highly recommend adding a closed cooling system (half system to cool the engine only), because starting with a new engine, it will not have corrosion inside and it will last longer and you will have less issues related to it running too cool because of sticky thermostats etc. If you keep it raw water cooled you must use the marine head gaskets, core plugs and front water pump. This is because of corrosion, the automotive parts will not stand up to running raw water through the engine.
If you go with a closed cooling system with antifreeze in the engine and a heat exchanger, then you can use the automotive head gaskets, core plugs and water pump as long as you make sure the antifreeze gets changed regularly like in a car.

The stuff from the old engine (marine starter, alternator, exhaust system, fuel system) can all be re-used as long as it's in good condition.

Once you get the new engine installed and running, the other important thing is to make sure it is propped correctly. This is like gear ratio in a car. Each engine/drive combination has a max rpm that it should reach at wide open throttle. This is to keep the engine from laboring at normal cruising speeds. If the max rpms are too low, then the engine can strain which will overheat the valves and cause engine troubles down the road. If it is too high then the engine can exceed the max safe rpms (redline on the tach). Usually its between 4500-4800 rpms at wide open throttle.
If you re-use the old exhaust manifolds check them carefully. You can have a water leak a the joint between the manifold and exhaust riser. This can allow water to leak into the cylinders and causes exhaust valve stems to corrode and the valves will then not seal and you will have rough running...

Post some pix of what you have....

ric · **Posted:** Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:44 am

If you can get a long block roller lifter motor. Just an all around better design.

You don't have to put in what you took out, just remember that. Hell, if you want you can throw a chevy in there.

I would.

LouC · **Posted:** Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:52 am

Except that:
You will need a whole new exhaust system, sometimes including the Y pipe
None of the other engine accessories will fit
I agree that parts for marine GM engines are easier to find and cheaper too.
But if all the add ons are in good shape, its much cheaper to stick with the Ford, unless you buy a whole donor power package so the parts don't nickel and dime you....

Scott4560 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:40 pm **Posts:** 21

LouC wrote:

Post a pic of the engine/drive so we can help out more...as a guess based on the year....you probably have a standard rotation flat tappet engine with a Volvo SX style drive (could be either the joint venture OMC Cobra or the SX but they were identical except for badging).
Keep in mind if you do an engine transplant from a vehicle, that there are marine specific parts you NEED no matter what anyone tells you:
Marine head gaskets esp if you keep it raw water cooled
Marine core plugs the standard ones will corrode and leak same as above.
Marine circulating pump same issue as above.
If you are getting a replacement engine and not rebuilding the old one, I'd highly recommend adding a closed cooling system (half system to cool the engine only), because starting with a new engine, it will not have corrosion inside and it will last longer and you will have less issues related to it running too cool because of sticky thermostats etc. If you keep it raw water cooled you must use the marine head gaskets, core plugs and front water pump. This is because of corrosion, the automotive parts will not stand up to running raw water through the engine.
If you go with a closed cooling system with antifreeze in the engine and a heat exchanger, then you can use the automotive head gaskets, core plugs and water pump as long as you make sure the antifreeze gets changed regularly like in a car.

The stuff from the old engine (marine starter, alternator, exhaust system, fuel system) can all be re-used as long as it's in good condition.

Once you get the new engine installed and running, the other important thing is to make sure it is propped correctly. This is like gear ratio in a car. Each engine/drive combination has a max rpm that it should reach at wide open throttle. This is to keep the engine from laboring at normal cruising speeds. If the max rpms are too low, then the engine can strain which will overheat the valves and cause engine troubles down the road. If it is too high then the engine can exceed the max safe rpms (redline on the tach). Usually its between 4500-4800 rpms at wide open throttle.
If you re-use the old exhaust manifolds check them carefully. You can have a water leak a the joint between the manifold and exhaust riser. This can allow water to leak into the cylinders and causes exhaust valve stems to corrode and the valves will then not seal and you will have rough running...

Post some pix of what you have....

Honestly want to keep it what it is. I am not seeking more HP just want to keep everything the same.

Here's some more just for shits and grins

Everyone loves kids! My 3 yr old

TX H210SS · **Joined:** Thu May 27, 2010 9:10 am **Posts:** 1488

Nice looking boat and looks well worth the repower. I think Lou may need to see pics of the drive to answer some of your other questions though.

I agree with you in keeping it the same setup....one change leads to a never ending adapting process it seems.

LouC · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:58 am

Looks like the Ford 5.8 EFI engine, if you can get the same block/heads then you can re-use everything. First I'd check to see if EFI parts, ignition parts, manifolds & risers are still available. If major parts like that are NLA, them it might make sense to change it over to a Chevy 5.7 with a 4 bb carb to keep costs down. Go back on
http://www.crowleymarine.com
Look in parts see if the Chevy was offered with your drive, the things that you have to modify will be the exhaust, engine mounts, etc.

We still don't know, is it an OMC or Volvo. In some years 94-98 they were identical which will help with parts since you should be able to get them from Volvo.

What you really need to find out is the OMC or Volvo model # which is usually on the engine somewhere, that's what helps in ordering parts.

I used to be able to look up Volvo parts in the on line parts catalog for Doug Russell Marine but that is gone now. Crowley Marine is very good but they only have Merc and OMC. I'd find out what you have, then look up parts #s for those items if you can and see if you can find out the equivalent Volvo part # (some were the same as OMC #s) if possible. I'd hate to see you put in a new engine and then have an ECU fail and now you can't find them. As long as Volvo also used the same engine with the same fuel injection and ignition system you should be able to get parts. But you have to do your research first.....

www.iFourWinns.com

1996 Horizon 240 engine question

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