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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Villiage Idiot

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm
Posts: 1405
Location: Kansas City
Being an electrician, I LOVE to be able to shut everything off to work on it without getting bit. I have no "secret circuits" such as the auto bilge pump, stereo or amp running to either batt. Everything goes through my Perko. I've been in a boat with an electrical fire. I didn't want to play a guessing gaming to determine if everything was de-energized, hence my set-up. If I see smoke, I can just flip the switch and know for certain it is de-energized.

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Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:35 am 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 2108
Location: Chester, UK
Walt,
re your comment "If I see smoke, I can just flip the switch and know for certain it is de-energized" Only true if the problem is after the switch; if it's a problem with the cables from the batteries to the switch, the flipping the switch will do nothing. For me, it's important to have an operational bilge pump when I leave the boat.

My boat is kept in a marina on the water each year for 6 months. The factory set up has the auto bilge pump connected to both batteries (with diodes to stop one battery flattening the other). The active corrosion protection is connected the same way, with a 1A fuse right at the output terminal on the switch. I've never ( touch wood!) had either battery go flat even after leaving the boat unused for up to 4 weeks at a time in very rainy conditions. To be honest, I'd prefer to come back to the boat to find 2 virtually flat batteries, rather than to find the engine compartment flooded with rainwater and the starter etc submerged! I always bring a battery booster pack with me " just in case" it's ever needed.

Graham


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:11 am 
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Nauti Luv

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:55 am
Posts: 2186
Location: Little Elm - Lake Lewisville TX
Graham - you bring up an excellent point about still have the automatic bilge pump come on. I had not even considered that. For me, my boat is never left in a slip, at least overnight. Its always kept in the garage, dry. Still though, it would suck to be out on a trip somewhere and not have it active if the need arose.

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Current Boat:
2004 Sea Ray 320 Sundancer "Nauti Luvin'"

Previous Boats:
1999 298 Vista "Seas The Day"
2008 H200SS "Nauti Luv"
2006 Tahoe Q4


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Villiage Idiot

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm
Posts: 1405
Location: Kansas City
Just to clearify, I don't turn the Batt switch to Off just when leaving the boat for the day. It's only Off as needed (for Maint, etc) and during the off season (Batts removed). I've never left it "Off" in the water, nor am I recommending anyone do. Everyone should know exactly what is powered from where in thier boat.

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Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:19 am 
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Dolphin

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:19 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Holly Ridge NC
Which one of these set ups is better to use and why?

http://bluesea.com/products/5511e
or
http://bluesea.com/products/9001e

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2008 H200SS
4.3 merc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:43 am 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 2108
Location: Chester, UK
Walt,

Good point re isolating circuitry from the battery when doing maintenance, even though it is only low voltage. The cable insulation is fire retardant, but it still makes a lot of smoke if there is a short (and someone in their wisdom has replace a fuse with a steel bolt, as I found on my first ever car!)

Graham


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 am 
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Villiage Idiot

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm
Posts: 1405
Location: Kansas City
jason24 wrote:
Which one of these set ups is better to use and why?

http://bluesea.com/products/5511e
or
http://bluesea.com/products/9001e


The first one you have listed is for only a single battery. If that's all you have, and just want to be able to isolate, then that is great.
The second one is for dual batts. This is what I am using. This allows you to select either battery for use with the other completely isolated. It allows you to switch to the opposite battery, again leaving the other isolated. Additionally, it allows you to have both batteries selected simultaniously for charging, or in a condition where neither battery is enough to get you "started".

I hope that helps.

_________________
Walt B
"Debt-Charged"
Black '07 H210SS
6.2L Bravo One turning a 21P HIFive
Wakeboard Tower with Perfect Pass Stargazer version
Missouri River; Kansas City, Mo.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:26 pm
Posts: 5688
Location: Long Island NY
Graham R wrote:
Walt,
re your comment "If I see smoke, I can just flip the switch and know for certain it is de-energized" Only true if the problem is after the switch; if it's a problem with the cables from the batteries to the switch, the flipping the switch will do nothing. For me, it's important to have an operational bilge pump when I leave the boat.

My boat is kept in a marina on the water each year for 6 months. The factory set up has the auto bilge pump connected to both batteries (with diodes to stop one battery flattening the other). The active corrosion protection is connected the same way, with a 1A fuse right at the output terminal on the switch. I've never ( touch wood!) had either battery go flat even after leaving the boat unused for up to 4 weeks at a time in very rainy conditions. To be honest, I'd prefer to come back to the boat to find 2 virtually flat batteries, rather than to find the engine compartment flooded with rainwater and the starter etc submerged! I always bring a battery booster pack with me " just in case" it's ever needed.

Graham


I had heard that the way many manufacturers wire the auto bilge switch is to wire it so the switch will have power even if the switch is off. I can see the logic of this, especially with moored boats, and I do keep mine on the mooring in salt water about 5 months of the year. However, one admittedly rare but possible scenario (especially in old boats) that caused me to do it differently is a fuel leak. If the gas tank ever leaked, I want to be able to turn off that auto bilge switch to eliminate the danger of ignition, so I have mine wired so it has power in all positions except 'off'. I always leave the switch on either 1 or 2 when I leave the boat. In 5 seasons of leaving the boat on the mooring, some years before I had the mooring covers redone so I used to get water in the bilge, never a dead battery. Now since I have re-done them, I get very little water in the bilge and and the auto bilge pump rarely if ever comes on.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:03 am 
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Narwhal
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:29 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Chicago, IL
aguyindallas wrote:
Perfect timing...I just finished adding my second battery and getting it all wired up to my Perko switch.

Here is my setup:

1. I had a 4 gauge, 10ft wire made to connect the ground from battery 1 to battery 2. Battery 1 still has the factory ground to engine cable.
2. I had a 4 gauge, 10ft wire made to connect battery 2 to the Perko switch. Battery 2 is on the port side, Perko on the starboard side.
3. 1 wire from the Perko terminal 1 to battery 1.
4. 1 wire from the Perko terminal 2 to battery 2
5. Common wire removed from factory battery 1 and put onto "common" terminal of Perko.
6. Left the "helm power" wire connected to battery 1 as it was from the factory. This allows me to not lose the radio settings whenever I switch batteries to the off position. I am not sure this is the smartest idea, as this would still allow a drain at the help if there was one to drain the power of battery 1.

I am told my setting is safe as long as the boat is not running while the switch is in the off position. When its running in the off position, the alternator is charging, but has nowhere to dispose of the energy it is making while its running. This is what I am told cooks alternators.

My worry in this deal is knowing when/if its safe to start the boat in the "all" position. Only when they are both to low to start the engine independently? Or is it also ok if battery 1 is nearly dead and battery 2 is fully charged? I am just worried that I am applying too much power in the all position and it will fry something.

My intention is to hit the water on day 1, using battery 1. I will leave it there all day, even while anchored and listening to music, led's on etc...IF it goes dead, I will switch to battery 2 to start the boat. When it is running, I will either switch to all, or back to battery 1 to be sure battery 1 gets a good charge on the ride back to the dock. On day 2, I would be running all day on battery 2 and reverse the process as needed. Since our boat is kept inside our garage at home, I can put a charger on it anytime needed. I am considering going to a dual battery on board charger also.



1. Current thinking (yes I meant the stupid pun) is to ground the second battery to the engine block, not the negative terminal on battery #1. I believe that this (along with terminal covers for both positive and negative terminals) is looked for should you ever desire a CG Safety Certification. As I understand it, the theory is that ground wire from the original battery to the engine block may not have been sized for both. Also, in your situation it probably would have been a much shorter run to the block which can impact the wire size and heat rating needed.

6. The helm power circuit has a couple things going on that deserve consideration. The stock bilge pump may be powered though the helm power switch. Unless re-wired, the Stereo Head unit is powered via the Helm power circuit. Navigation lights are powered via the Helm power circuit. If you drain the battery that these are hard wired to and switch to the other, these things will no longer be powered. If you also move the helm power circuit to the switch common position you might be better off given your intended use - but be careful, you bilge pump will be off when the switch is off, and as you mention, your radio presets will be lost when the switch is off.

You should be ok starting in the all position even if one battery is very low as long as you switch, then immediately start the engine. In other words, do not give the batteries much time to equalize, especially if your boat is fuel injected as the electronics are more sensitive to battery charge level at start. Once started the alternator should be able to provide enough amps to run systems and charge both batteries. It's only when a battery is *dead* and can not be recharged that the all or both setting is problematic. In that situation, you want to start and run on only the good battery - even if it took a bit of re-wiring on water to do so.

As far as your intentions go, you should be fine. Especially if you charge up the batteries between uses. Dual on board smart chargers are great, many can individualy sense and charge/tend each battery separately. They are also more likely to have the amp output required to charge two larger group 27 + batteries overnight. I have the Guest 16202 Dual On board Smart Charger on my boat. It can kick out 10 amps per battery (which I believe to be the minimum needed). Works great, I'd buy it again.

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2007 Horizon 200
4.3L GXi/ SX 225 HP


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:20 am 
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Narwhal
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:29 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Chicago, IL
Walt wrote:
jason24 wrote:
Which one of these set ups is better to use and why?

http://bluesea.com/products/5511e
or
http://bluesea.com/products/9001e


The first one you have listed is for only a single battery. If that's all you have, and just want to be able to isolate, then that is great.
The second one is for dual batts. This is what I am using. This allows you to select either battery for use with the other completely isolated. It allows you to switch to the opposite battery, again leaving the other isolated. Additionally, it allows you to have both batteries selected simultaniously for charging, or in a condition where neither battery is enough to get you "started".

I hope that helps.


If you are looking to add a second battery for rendundancy, or to provide power to stereo, amps, or other high demand accesories here's the Blue Sea Systems product I'd recommend:

http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/329

It's the Add a Battery package, and provides a both a switch and automatic charging relay. The beauty of it is that the House battery is isolated from Starting battery, except when a charging source is present when the two are automatically combined. The switch is a simple On/Off/All, and is almost always left to On. I used this system all last season, and only had to switch to both for starting once, and that was when it was out of the water and at the dealer for warranty repair of the trim pump. Still haven't figured out how they managed to drain the starting battery. :roll: The Blue Sea Systems Add a Battery package worked so well I didn't use my on board dual charger all season long, at least not until it was time to put the boat into winter storage. :mrgreen:

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2007 Horizon 200
4.3L GXi/ SX 225 HP


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 258
Location: Michigan, 4 of 5 Great Lakes Approve
I didn't see this question asked, but forgive me if it was....
Is there a preference to for the 2nd battery to be a starting only battery as opposed to a dual-purpose battery? The starting battery looks to be a bit cheaper, but my thought is to just run 2 dual-purpose batteries.
Second, what are your opinions on mounting the second battery on the same side (starboard) or port side? If mounted on the same side, I could save on cable costs, but weight distribution might be better on the port side. I'm not sure if I even have room on the port side yet, but thought I would pose the question.
Being that I have a smaller bow rider, many things probably aren't as big a factor as a cruiser would be, eg I trailer, so it's not a big deal to have my electronics on a separate battery, same with the bilge. I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks.

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'99 Horizon 200


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Nauti Luv

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:55 am
Posts: 2186
Location: Little Elm - Lake Lewisville TX
I like them to be both the same type (dual purpose) batteries. This way you can alternate battery usage on a trip by trip basis. Trip 1, use battery 1. Trip 2, use battery 2....alternate back and forth.

I prefer to have mine on opposite sides of the boat simply for the ability to equal the weight.

_________________
Current Boat:
2004 Sea Ray 320 Sundancer "Nauti Luvin'"

Previous Boats:
1999 298 Vista "Seas The Day"
2008 H200SS "Nauti Luv"
2006 Tahoe Q4


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Narwhal
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:29 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Chicago, IL
I have both batteries on the same side to minimize wire runs. Incidentally, I did run a separate ground to the engine block for the added battery. I've noticed no listing or balance problem with having both batteries on one side on my 200, but did add a sub and enclosure on the other side (starboard) which probably balances out the weight of the added bttery somewhat. I added a group 31 battery as my second battery, and made that the house battery. The stock group 27 is used for starting and a back up bilge pump. I use the larger battery for house systems to get longest run time on amp/stereo and primary bilge pump. as I used the Blue Sea Systems Add-A-Battery package, unless the boat is stored for a period of time, I leave the switch set to on, and leave it to the isolater to apply charge to one or the other of the batteries as needed.

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2007 Horizon 200
4.3L GXi/ SX 225 HP


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Sting Ray

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:42 pm
Posts: 64
Location: lexington, michigan
on the subject of batteries... i'm about to install a perko shutoff switch for my one battery but on the subject of cable size, my original pos. & neg. leads are #2 ga. and should i continue using a 2 ga. from the switch to the battery pos. post or could i down size to a #4 for my new lead?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:16 am 
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wkearney99

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:50 pm
Posts: 2444
Location: Boat in Annapolis, live in Bethesda, MD
You should generally never make your battery lines a thinner gauge (a higher number). And if you run a longer length you should use a heavier gauge. The longer the line, the heavier the gauge needed. Power is lost over distance. A couple of inches won't be a problem, but after a foot or more makes it worth considering a heavier (lower gauge) wire. Depending on how far away you're putting the switch I'd certainly stick with the existing gauge size, not any thinner.

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