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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:54 pm 
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My PerfectPass system has been sitting in its box for nearly a month. Yesterday, I finally got up the courage to cut a hole in the bottom of the hull of my brand new boat. This answers the question of why the system was sitting in the box for nearly a month. Who wants to do this? Are they interested in self-torture? Yes and no. While this was painful to think about (and do), it was not nearly as painful as trying to wakeboard behind a boat being driven by an eager-to-learn but inexperienced driver. I promised to map this out when I started, so here goes. My apologies in advance for not charging the battery on my digital cam. As a result, I have no pics. I'll edit when I get a chance to show the flange installed, but I won't be able to produce pictures of cutting or the hole itself at any stage. I promise that the additional steps WILL include pics.

Installation: Step 1
The instructions with the unit are pretty straight-forward. There is a flange that goes into the hull where the speedo paddle wheel later is installed. The flange is threaded, is about 2" in diameter, and is approximately 6" tall with a lip at the bottom that is approximately 2 3/4" to 3" in diameter. It is pretty simple to see what you have to do. You have to use a 2" hole saw, and cut into the hull inside the engine compartment, just in front of the engine. Then you plug the flange into the hull from the bottom of the boat, and put a foam rubber washer plastic nut on it inside the bilge area and tighten it down. You use silicone sealer along the way to keep the water out, but this process is more complicated than it sounds. Read on, kids. Read on.

So how do you do this?
1. Locate a spot on the bottom of the hull with the boat on the trailer, where there is no bunk, about 5 inches from the keel. Make sure there is no chine, strake, or other interfering object on the bow side of this spot. If there is a depthfinder transducer, go to the opposite side of the keel. You want a perfectly smooth location.
2. From inside the bilge, measure approximately the same distance from the keel, and mark that spot in front of the the engine (toward the bow).
3. Drill a 1/8 pilot hole from the inside of the bilge area at the marked spot.
4. Lay on ground under trailer and locate pilot hole on bottom of hole. Use a reversible drill, attach a 2" hole saw, and begin cutting the outer skin of the hull's fiberglass IN REVERSE. This helps prevent spider cracking of the fiberglass around the hole. Take your time and stop every so often to examine the skin. Once you get all the way through the skin, STOP. DO NOT CUT THE HOLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Using a flathead screwdriver, pry/knock out the disk of fiberglass that you have created.
5. Get back in the boat, and repeat step 4 (but from inside the bilge area) using a 2 1/2" hole saw. DO NOT use the same 2" hole saw. The hole on the inside of the bilge area MUST be a little bigger. Do not go any bigger than 2 1/2", though. Make sure you STOP once you get through the skin of fiberglass inside the bilge. DO NOT CUT THE HOLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Again, use a flathead screwdriver and pry/knock out the disk of fiberglass that you have created on the inside of the bilge area.
6. You should now see a bunch of foam, which is the boat's foam core. Using the same flathead screwdriver, work from inside the bilge area and break up the foam all the way to the outside skin of the hull. When you get done, you should have a 2 1/2" round hole in the foam all the way down to the outer skin. The outer skin should have a very thin layer of wood that you can see, and should have a 2" hole (a little smaller than the hole in the foam) that is visible and clearly allows you to see the ground.

Questions to ponder: Why did you do this? What is wrong with just cutting the 2" hole all the way through, sealing the heck out of it with silicone, and tightening it down? The layer of wood is the major reason. If the hull's core were all foam, you might do that (I still wouldn't recommend it). But, a FW Horizon has wood. If you developed a leak at a later time at the flange, the wood would essentially suck the water into itself and then wick it around to the wood layer placed throughout the hull. Eventually, you have a hull full of water-NOT GOOD.

*edit* here is a site explaining the concept of an epoxy "sleeve" pretty well: http://members.toast.net/boatguy/drill.htm Sorry, meant to include that originally but didn't. Steps 7-11 create the epoxy "sleeve" but in a way in which you do not have to wait 24 hours or drill the epoxy out at a later time. Also, Steps 5-6 create the alternate method shown on this page, which results in "superior protection" of the core.

On with the lesson.

7. Find something with which to construct a 2"cylinder that is approximately 6-7" tall. This can be tough to find. I used an empty paper towel roll wrapped around the outside of the flange. Since the diameter of a paper towel roll is smaller than 2", it takes some cutting and taping to get it done, but eventually you will come up with a cardboard cylinder that is just slightly bigger than 2". Voila.
8. Coat the cylinder with wax or vaseline, and insert the cylinder into the 2" hole and leave it there. Make sure some of they cylinder sticks out of the bottom of the boat when you look at it from outside.
9. When you look at the hole from the inside, you should be able to see a gap of approximately 1/4" all the way around between the edge of the hole you cut inside the bilge area (the 2 1/2" hole) and the cylinder. Make sure that this is the case, and that ALL foam is cleaned out to make a nice smooth wall all the way around the hole on the inside of the hull.
10. From inside the bilge area, fill the entire area between the cylinder and the foam core with epoxy. I recommend buying the type of epoxy tubes that have a nozzle which mixes the 2 parts into one tube so that all you have to do is push the plunger down and mixed epoxy comes out. I bought these at Lowe's-very easy to find and not all that expensive. I used approximately 4 tubes of 5-minute epoxy in this type of dispenser. It was easy to squirt the stuff exactly where I wanted it, and it set up quickly. Be careful not to overfill the 1/4" gap-you don't want the inside of the bilge area to have an uneven or "high" edge because eventually you'll be putting a sealing washer and plastic nut right over everything. Also be sure to check the outside of the hull to make sure no epoxy is visible. If it is remove it before it cures.
11. After the epoxy has cured, slide the cylinder out. The wax/vaseline should allow this to happen very easily. The result should be a nice 2" diameter hole all the way from the inside to the outside. Most of what you can see is a hole with a smooth epoxy wall reaching all the way down to the hole in the outer skin. You have just sealed the wood and foam core with epoxy so that it will not take on any water. Allow the epoxy some additional time to cure in the open air (10 minutes or so). This is (hopefully) the last time this epoxy will see open air.
12. Use silicone sealer and coat the flange, inside of your newly made epoxy-walled hole, and the threads of the flange.
13. Insert flange into the hole from under the boat. Make sure the arrow is pointing toward the bow and is parallel to the keel. Install foam rubber washer and plastic nut. Hand tighten. While tightening, verify that the notch on the top of the threaded portion is facing toward the bow. This notch is in the same location as the arrow on the bottom of the flange, and helps you know from the inside that it is still facing the correct direction. Hand tighten only. DO NOT TORQUE the plastic nut. Make sure there is some silicone sealer on the threads to "lock" the plastic nut in place.

The real key to cutting the hole is getting everything internal sealed/covered with epoxy to prevent water infiltration. If you screw that up, you have a lot of work ahead of you to re-do it. If you screw up just the bedding of the flange with the sealant, that is much easier to re-do.

Step 2 (installing electronic components) is coming soon.

_________________
Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
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Last edited by pet575 on Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:54 pm 
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230 Mike
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Location: Kansas City, Table Rock Lake
NICE writeup Paul! Shame on you about the pics, though :-).

I might have used West System epoxy for such an application, but hardware store "plunger mix" shouldn't be a problem. I *do* wonder, though, if something like 5200 or Lifeseal (below-waterline polyurethane sealants) would have been better than silicone?

I'm looking forward to installment 2. You are one brave guy!

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2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:54 am 
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I had the same questions, which were also a factor in why it took me a month to start this project. I'd been in contact with PerfectPass probably 10 times by phone and email (BTW, they are GREAT), and they assured me that any standard epoxy would be adequate since I was not actually making an epoxy plug that would have a large surface area contacting the water at all times and/or at high speeds. Basically, the difference is that the epoxy is up inside the hull rather than on the surface where it would get more pressure and exposure.

I went with GE Silicone because that is what the PerfectPass instruction manual recommended. Good thing is that, if I am unhappy with it or it leaks badly, I can take out the flange and tear out all of the sealant but the epoxy can still stay in and I just re-seal it with 5200, Lifeseal, or something else that is comparable.

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Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:15 am 
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230 Mike
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Location: Kansas City, Table Rock Lake
Nice!

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2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:39 am 
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Well, looks like the GE sealant is a non-issue. I had the boat out this weekend for many hours-not a drop of leakage. Now that I could verify that Step 1 was a success, I'll be finishing this project this coming weekend to install the electronics and get some pictures of it all for everyone to see.

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Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:06 am 
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230 Mike
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Location: Kansas City, Table Rock Lake
Stockton? How was it?

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2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Update: I was too stupid to remember to bring my fishtape with me to the lake last weekend, so I was unable to run the wires to the dash in order to get this project completed. Rather than do everything else needed, I decided to go out and play on the water.

I am hoping to have enough intelligence to remember my fishtape and all other necessary tools this weekend so that I can both complete the project and snap photos for all of you.

_________________
Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:26 pm 
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230 Mike
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Yeah, pretty stupid. You were out on the water while I was working on trailer lights :? .

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Mike
2005 Four Winns 230/240
VP 5.7GXi/DP
1998 F-150 XLT
Boat Pic


Last edited by 230 Mike on Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:00 am 
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Tadpole

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Any more progress? Im curious to hear how you like PP on the boat. And how hard setting up the throttle linkage was.

Great writeup so far... Much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:13 am 
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I actually have it all installed and got to use it for the first time last weekend. I forgot to take pictures, though, so I was holding off until I got those so that I could post them all together. Didn't want to tease you guys. But, now you've got me where you want me so I'll spill the beans.

Everything on the installation was EASY, and went just as the instruction manual said it would. Here's an illustration of the ease of installation: I installed everything, ran my cables, and got everything except for the display gauge that replaces the speedometer installed under a streetlight. The display gauge was literally about 1 mm bigger in diameter than the factory speedo, so I had to use a Dremel tool and make the hole in the dash just a tiny bit bigger. No sweat, though, it fits perfectly and looks great.

The part I was most concerned about was cutting the hole in the hull. I covered that in my previous postings. I was secondarily concerned about whether the servo control motor that hooks to the throttle would affect the way the throttle "felt" when not using the system. The instruction manual says that it should feel no different than before it was installed, and the manual was dead-on. It feels exactly the same.

Use: anyone who is going to install/use PerfectPass should know that this thing needs adjustment. We had some surging and slowing during the initial runs we made behind the boat. Also, the trim position on your boat definitely affects its performance. At certain trim levels, certain settings to the sensitivity must be changed. At other levels, it doesn't need any changing. I'm still working with PerfectPass's tech support (who, as rumored, have been GREAT) to get her dialed in perfectly and figure out the best trim position-I'll be trying to finalize that over Labor Day Weekend.

Right now, I'm running it at the stock settings with the trim only run up to about 2/3 of the full amount of trim (the "marks" on the trim gauge you would take it up to when cruising). At that point, the system works pretty well and stays within about 0.5MPH of the setpoint. I wakeboard at 21MPH, and it never drops below 20.5MPH at that point. If I run the trim adjustment all the way up to the marks, though, the system surges a lot more.

I'll update after this weekend. I promise that my update will include pics of the entire installation.

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Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:35 am 
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Tadpole

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Thats fantastic news. Thank you very much for the update.

I dont expect to have nearly the accuracy that you have with yours, though, as we've got a little 180 horizon (4.3L) which is underpowered and dosnt hold speed very well, and will likely be sticking with PP cruise which only has RPM mode. Its nice to hear that the throttle feels the same though.

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:42 am 
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Tadpole

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I have a quick question... was your throttle cable a push type or pull type? Mine seems to be a "push type" where the throttle cable pushes to open the butterfly. I think I recall that perfect pass requires a pull type. It looks like it can be easily changed to pull type at the carb, however im not sure how to get to the throttle handle... Im kinda bummed out if I cant reverse this.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:59 am 
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Mine was "pull to open" which PerfectPass requires. But, I have the MPI setup so the carb v. MPI is probably the difference. No clue how to change that over, but I would think there has to be a way. Not sure if changing it over would affect the system's performance, though.

Get in touch with the tech support or sales people up there. They are very good and would probably be more than willing to suggest some solutions if it was going to earn them a sale. I dealt with Aaron Adams and Gary Allen up there-both have been great so far.

http://www.perfectpass.com

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Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:38 pm 
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Tadpole

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Thanks for all the info. I spent all last week ripping into the side panel of the boat and after many hours sucessfully converted my throttle to a "pull to open" configuration. Now that the hard part is done,I can finally begin my installation.

One thing I noticed is that the post that the stock throttle cable attaches to seems to be a press fit. It does not have some sort of backing nut that can be undone, as in the instruction manual. How did you get yours off the throttle cam? I might just try and slide the brass L piece over the existing post as opposed to using the included nut and bolt.

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:33 am 
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Mine was the nut/bolt combo, exactly as was pictured in the instructions, so I just removed all of that stuff and then installed the brass L piece.

I had a little confusion after I first installed it as to whether I had the L piece in there correctly. I thought the instructions could have been a little more clear, though I can't say exactly how I'd rewrite them.

After seeing the system operate with the engine cover off, I learned that I had installed the L piece properly just by watching it move. I would think that you can mount that L piece in there however you want, as long as you follow these rules:

1. The L piece MUST loosely pivot on whatever post/bolt you put it on. If it binds at all, the system will not work reliably;
2. When looking at the L piece linearly, from bow to stern, the L piece MUST be lined up relatively close to the place where the servo motor cable hooks to the throttle linkage; and
3. However the L piece is attached, it MUST NOT be able to move laterally (port to starboard).

Using the included hardware, it IS possible (and easy) to mount that piece, tighten things down so that nothing will move, and achieve all 3 things. I would think you could achieve this with your setup as well, if I am understanding your setup as you describe it. A pic of what you have would be REALLY helpful. I'm sure PerfectPass' tech support guys would be as well. I cannot repeat enough how great they have been.

For everyone else's benefit, here is what GuitsBoy is asking about:

http://www.perfectpass.com/pp_support_figure_C.html

CAUTION: This picture is not the EXACT thing of what my throttle assembly looks like. I'm using this picture ONLY to show everyone what the L piece is that we are discussing in these posts.

Again, next time I get a chance to get some pictures of my now-completed installation I will get them on here for everyone's viewing pleasure.

_________________
Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)
Image


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