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Issues at idle
https://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13271		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  fi.na.tine [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Issues at idle
So I followed directions - push the button for neutral - push all the way forward 3x, then 1/3 and attempt to start... Sometimes it starts, other times not...

But mostly I just have issues with it holding idle anywhere under about 140. Once it does start running and gets there, I engage the motor (Pull all the way up to 90 degrees, then push forward) - and it usually dies if it is just getting underway.

Thoughts? (I'm also posting something odd about the power steering being low)
Author:  rpengr [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
That is the correct starting procedure if your engine is carbureted (not fuel injected). Looking back through your posts, I cannot tell if you are carbureted or fuel injected.

The symptoms point towards not getting enough fuel at idle (too lean). If it is carbureted, it is very likely that there is some blockage in the idle jets or passageways. These are the first areas to get blocked by dried gas/gunk because they are the smallest.

It could also be that your choke mechanism is not working, but the choke is not necessary after the first 20sec of running or so. So I do not think that is your problem.

Sounds like you need to rebuild/clean the carburetor. This is something you could do yourself, but it would be a good idea to have help from someone experienced the first time you do it. You can purchase a rebuild kit from NAPA or similar if you get the numbers off the carburetor. ($30-40)
Author:  ric [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
As an owner of 3 carbureted boats, I can tell you that's how you make it not start.

I have never been in a situation where I can't come to my boat after it's been sitting a week and just turn the key and it fires up the instant I touch the key. No pumping the gas.

What you're doing (pumping 3 times and 1/3 throttle) will flood the engine and never make it start. It's not a 1930's model T ford, there's no need for any of that.

Do a full tune up (cap/rotor/wires/plugs), it should fire right up without doing any of that mess. Also, on your 3.0 VP engine, get some fuel line insulation and wrap the metal fuel line coming out of the fuel pump that leads to the carb. It gets hot and will cause vapor lock.
Author:  Gresh24 [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
ric wrote:
What you're doing (pumping 3 times and 1/3 throttle) will flood the engine and never make it start. It's not a 1930's model T ford, there's no need for any of that.


I've been doing this procedure for 20 years and never had a problem...
Author:  rpengr [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
First start of day/week, I pump throttle twice, then set throttle a little above idle. If it doesn't keep running, then one more pump and works on second try. I can idle and go into gear within 10-15 seconds after that.
After the first start of day, all other starts are just turn the key at idle.

The OP has also stated that he has trouble with the engine dying even warmed up to 140deg. That has nothing to do with starting procedure.

Help me out, Lou
Author:  ric [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
Gresh24 wrote:
ric wrote:
What you're doing (pumping 3 times and 1/3 throttle) will flood the engine and never make it start. It's not a 1930's model T ford, there's no need for any of that.


I've been doing this procedure for 20 years and never had a problem...


I just put the key in the ignition and it starts instantly. I also run E10 gasoline. Ignition is set at 12* BDC.
Author:  Gresh24 [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
ric wrote:
I just put the key in the ignition and it starts instantly. I also run E10 gasoline. Ignition is set at 12* BDC.


Ok. I follow the procedure listed on here that is also in the manual and never had a problem. My boat is a 1994. The procedure doesn't "never make it start" like you said.
Author:  ric [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
The point I'm trying to make is, a properly running engine in good condition doesn't need all that to start.

There's an issue somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it's ignition related. Do a full tuneup.
Author:  Gresh24 [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
So, every carbed engine that doesn't fire right up on the first turn of the key in weeks without priming, choking, or throttling needs a full tuneup? Hmmm
Author:  ric [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
Gresh24 wrote:
So, every carbed engine that doesn't fire right up on the first turn of the key in weeks without priming, choking, or throttling needs a full tuneup? Hmmm


Every carb'd engine? Yes. If it doesn't fire right up yes there's an issue somewhere. There's no excuse for poor starting just because the engine is carb not FI. Only poor maintenance. My Suzuki RGV 250, a 250cc 2-stroke race bike would start on it's first kick, every time. No priming. If that can start perfectly, your boat can.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
Welcome back Gresh24 !!! As you can see, things have not changed for the better since last summer :wink:

We had our carbed boat for 9 years , had to follow the same procedure each time it started. Never really needed any
tune up or additional maintenance. it never once let me down for starting. Each boat may be slightly different as far
as starting procedure goes, just find what way works for your boat and hit the water !
Author:  Gresh24 [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
ric wrote:

Every carb'd engine? Yes. If it doesn't fire right up yes there's an issue somewhere. There's no excuse for poor starting just because the engine is carb not FI. Only poor maintenance. My Suzuki RGV 250, a 250cc 2-stroke race bike would start on it's first kick, every time. No priming. If that can start perfectly, your boat can.


Wow, that's a very different post from what it started.

My boat does start perfectly. Every time. Idles perfectly. Runs perfectly.

Why do carbed engines even have chokes and detailed starting instructions? Just for those who are poor at maintenance I suppose...
Author:  Gresh24 [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
Cap'n Morgan wrote:
Welcome back Gresh24 !!! As you can see, things have not changed for the better since last summer :wink:


Thanks. Had a bad summer last year and didn't get a chance to get on the water. Much better this year. But good to see some things never change...

Cap'n Morgan wrote:
We had our carbed boat for 9 years , had to follow the same procedure each time it started. Never really needed any
tune up or additional maintenance. it never once let me down for starting. Each boat may be slightly different as far
as starting procedure goes, just find what way works for your boat and hit the water !


Amen. Mine certainly fires right up many times, but also has times it needs primed. My boat is meticulously maintained and tuned up when needed.
Author:  ric [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
Fuel injection has a choke too, but it's done electronically with how the injectors are fired. I'm not trying to start a huge discussion here, but 99% of the time your carb'd boat should fire right up without any priming. If everytime to get the boat started you have to perform a 13 step procedure with the throttle there is something wrong that needs fixing.
Author:  kd4pbs [ Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues at idle
The choke mechanism also has what is known as a fast idle cam. When adjusted properly, it is the action of first opening the throttle. Pumping it a couple times will usually help prime the intake with fuel as well, since it creates a pool of fuel in the intake. This fuel pool helps in two ways; first it will lessen fuel condensation in the bottom of a cold intake manifold that can lead to a too-lean warmup (and stalling). Second, it boils off as the engine warms, also helping warmup. Gasoline engines don't mind so much being too rich, but they really don't run well being too lean.
Anyway, now that you've opened and closed the throttle at least once, your fast idle cam (which is hooked to the choke mechanism) will swing into position under the idle adjustment screw, and will now hold the idle open higher than normal. Turn the key, and if all is adjusted correctly, the motor will turn the engine fast enough to start. While the engine warms up, the oil becomes thinner, the fuel vaporizes better, and the idle speed increases. Tap the throttle open again, and the choke mechanism will now pull the fast idle cam a little more out of the way, causing a lower fast idle. It won't happen unless you actually "blip" the throttle open, because the throttle return spring holds enough pressure on the fast idle cam that it won't move under the spring pressure from the choke mechanism. After several seconds, the choke mechanism will have started opening the choke butterfly further and further, until it's fully open well before you even see the temp gauge move from "cold". The choke butterfly moves without having to blip the throttle.
After the engine reaches probably 100 degrees or so, depending on ambient temperature, a blip of the throttle will allow the fast idle cam to rotate fully towards normal hot idle.
If you have a carburetor, it's cold, and a turn of the key will allow it to start on fast idle (remember: when you shut the engine down on it's prior run the fast idle cam was where it should be when hot) without first opening the throttle, then it is from a lack of maintenance, or you have magical leprechauns that come to your engine and set the fast idle cam during the night.
As far as how often to pump the throttle, that depends on several factors such as humidity, fuel quality, ambient (engine room) temperature, engine design, engine age, etc.

Bottom line: If it works for your boat and the engine runs fine, then that's how it "likes" to be started.
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