Crappy news, mate!
On the positive side, you can now upgrade that asthmatic 2BBL to a 4BBL!
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| Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS https://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13913 |
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| Author: | Nezzo [ Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I have a Four Winns 18 RS with a Volvo Penta 5.7GL and an SX Cobra Outdrive. Had problem with starter motor which failed 8 miles out to sea, engine was running and working fine until then. The boat was out of use for about 2 months. I fitted a new starter about a month ago and the engine turned over no problem but not started as I had no water supply. I fitted a new prop today and found the engine is now seized solid. Removed new starter thinking that might be stopping it turning over but no joy. Removed spark plugs and put remote camera down, cylinders are full of rust and it looks like it’s not run for years. Engine will not budge on the starter or even a socket and bar on crankshaft pulley nut, it really is that solid. I have a reasonable understanding of car engines but has anyone any idea if water can get in a boat engine other than the normal head gasket type failures. What I can’t understand is how it turned over on the starter 4 weeks ago and now it’s solid. I have given it a generous squirt of WD40 in each pot and hope this may free it off overnight but I am not very optimistic. If I need to replace the engine could anyone recommend a direct replacement for the Volvo Penta 5.7GL or would you recommend having it rebuilt. It was fully rebuilt when I bought it 2 years ago which makes me feel this problem may have occurred before, hence the reason I would like to understand how water can get in there in the first place. |
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| Author: | ric [ Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
How was the boat stored? |
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| Author: | deafwish [ Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Does your crankcase oil look like it's contaminated with water? When did you last inspect the exhaust manifold to riser gaskets? I'd be spraying in some PB Blaster directly in to the cylinders & re-trying again. p.s. I assume your battery is A OK? |
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| Author: | rpengr [ Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I think a likely source of the water is from the exhaust manifolds. If they rusted through to the water jacket then water would enter the cylinders through the exhaust valves (even with the engine just sitting). I had this happen on my previous boat. The rust through can be anywhere in the casting, or at the gasket surface between the manifold and riser. Did you find rusty cylinders on BOTH sides of the engine, or just one side? I assume by "out to sea" you mean in salt water. Since you could not start the engine, it sounds like you were not able to flush with fresh water, and it sat with salt water in it for two months. If the manifolds were already old, that could have been the final straw. |
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| Author: | Rick2752 [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I think we need more info on what you have done. I would probably pull the outdrive make sure it spins freely. Process of elimination. I assume you were cranking the motor by hand with a breaker bar since you said starter was off. You r headed down the right path just eliminate things and soak in penetrant. Trying to move it. Take the belts off and keep working it. I just put a new 5.7 in mine. Motor long block cost about 2500. Maybe 3k. When I got done replacing little stuff. |
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| Author: | NiagaraChillin [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Hydrolock? Did you come off plane quickly to an abrupt stop? Did it sit for 2 months AFTER the starter failure at sea? |
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| Author: | Nezzo [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Crankcase oil looks perfect on the dipstick - No contamination or milky-ness, pretty certain the oil is not mixed with water at this stage. Never checked the exhaust manifold riser gaskets and don't know what or where they are. I am just printing out a manual and will check it out. Two brand new batteries. Rustiness is apparent on both sides of the engine but not all the cylinders. The engine has been sat for the last 2 months with salt water in it, and last summer for 6 months in a salt water Marina. I'm beginning to get the picture of where things have gone wrong. I don't recall coming off the plane particularly quickly but I might have done as I have never considered it an issue. The starter that failed (gears crunching) was itself quite a new replacement. It was a cheaper and much lighter type, I was told by the supplier that the original was no longer available. Apparently the newer after market type have a set of internal planetary gears that can fail if the engine misfires when starting which smashes them. The new one I fitted last month was of the same type as the original which I eventually found, incredibly heavy with a fixed armature. This had no problem turning the engine over. The engine didn't burst into life as I would have expected but at the time I was quite pleased that I could test the starter a good few times without the engine running as I had no water supply. I'm starting to think now that the water in the cylinders was present at this stage causing it not to fire up and run. I soaked the cylinders in penetrating oil last night but it's still rock solid this morning even with the plugs out and the starter removed. Just a thought, could it be possible that the outdrive gearbox is jammed in some way. The drive to the prop engages and disengages from the throttle lever. On thinking about it I think that having rust in the cylinders would suggest that this has to be the problem but it doesn't seem possible for it to seize in just a few weeks after it was turning over on the starter. I'm thinking my next step is to take the heads off and take a look inside. I've found a local company that's offering a long block for £1700 which sounds quite reasonable but they have had mixed reviews. Thanks to everyone for the input and any more ideas please keep them coming. I will update on my progress. |
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| Author: | babbot1 [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I would keep soaking with penetrating oil and remove the outdrive like suggested above. Just process of elimination take everything off that may be seized even belt driven items like alternator/power steering. Then try to turn by hand. If you don't have water in the crankcase I would guess you can break the cylinders loose. Keep at it sometimes it takes a while for the oil to work its way in. You may need a rebuild afterwards if the cylinder walls are very bad like a honing and rings or even a bore out but you may not need a new block. |
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| Author: | NiagaraChillin [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
babbot1 wrote: remove the outdrive like suggested above. +1 on that. Much easier to pull the outdrive to eliminate that as a problem than yanking the heads. As far as hydrolocking, what year is your boat? Can't remember what years had the exhaust flappers, but if yours did and they came loose (a common problem), it could have let water travel up the exhaust into the heads from a sudden stop. |
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| Author: | rpengr [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I would suggest that a few weeks IS enough time to get the engine to seize. However, the sooner you get the penetrating oil in there and unstuck, the more likely you will be OK. If you can get it turning, then started, you will have nothing to loose by trying to get some hours on it. Then do a compression check to see what condition you have. I would follow up with an oil & filter change after 5 hours then again after 15 hours. Your really need to take your exhaust manifolds off and see what condition they are in...or at least remove the risers so you can see the inside of the manifolds. Lots of info on the forum about this. (Before unbolting the riser, remove the hose at the front of the manifold to drain the water to below the gasket level) Regarding the "Hydrolock" issue: You can look up that term and learn a lot more, but I believe that it can only happen when the engine is not running. For example, if you are planed off, and the engine dies, then the sudden stop (and wave hitting the back of the boat) could force sea water to slosh over the height of the exhaust riser elbows. This could also happen if you have your whole crew sitting on the swim platform and have waves hitting the boat. However, I do not see any way that this can happen with the engine running, because the exhaust pressure would prevent water from sloshing in that high. Regarding the internal exhaust flappers: VP had a service bulletin that requested that the flappers be removed. They seem like a good idea, but VP apparently feels that they do more harm than good. During an overheat, they can melt and come out of position, getting caught at the bottom of the exhaust "Y pipe" (they were rubber). I agree with you... if you see rusty cylinders, and cannot move the crank at all, then the problem is there, not the outdrive. If the outdrive was jammed, then you would be able to move the crank slightly, and would feel that you were fighting the rubber flex coupling at the back of the engine. |
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| Author: | deafwish [ Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Can you rotate the engine in reverse, by hand? As stated, keep soaking with penetrant. I'd be draining the manifolds ASAP anyway, as they may still be leaking water in to the exhaust valves! |
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| Author: | Nezzo [ Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
I'm afraid its not good news. I filled each cylinder with penetrating oil and made a long bar welded to a face plate that I drilled and fitted it to the three bolts on the front crank case pulley and it didn't even budge the pistons. The small bit of movement I got was probably some damage to keyway or something similar but I could see the pistons weren't moving on the remote camera. I don't think standing on the bar did it much good at all but it was worth a go. I then took off the riser on one side and there was wet and rust in both the water and exhaust sides, up through the riser and even brown rust residue deposits all over the inside of the large plastic pipe that fits onto the top of the riser. The cause of the water is really baffling as the gasket at the bottom of the riser seemed ok, albeit it had two gaskets on top of each other. With all the water and rust in it its not worth going any further. My biggest problem was now going to be getting the dead engine out as I don't have a gantry high enough to lift it above the height of the boat. However I have found an engine rebuilder who knows this engine inside out and says he remanufactures about 30 of these engines a month. He is happy for me to disconnect everything, take the boat to him and he will lift it out with a forklift. He will either remanufacture my engine or provide an alternative, refit all the accessories and additional components, test it and drop it back in the boat for £2200 which seems very reasonable. He even invited me to the factory to see it being machined and rebuilt and gives a 12 month warranty. Can't say fairer than that, it seems too good to be true. Fingers crossed. Next job is taking the outdrive off and disconnecting everything from the engine which according to the manual is quite straightforward, (if only). Thanks everyone for the advice. |
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| Author: | LouC [ Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
That's an unfortunate turn of events but it is common in salt water regions because the cast iron exhaust will last about 5-7 years, sometimes longer. The weak spot as you found out is the riser/manifold gasket and the sealing surfaces on each of the cast iron parts. The sealing surfaces start to erode and the gasket leaks. This is why removing the risers every 3-5 years is a good idea. I have the one piece manifolds that OMC used on the V-6 engines for some time and they don't have a joint to leak. I do take them off about every 5 years to see how they are. |
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| Author: | deafwish [ Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Crappy news, mate! On the positive side, you can now upgrade that asthmatic 2BBL to a 4BBL!
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| Author: | Haddock_ [ Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Volvo 5.7 GL Engine Seized in Horizon 18RS |
Bad news £2200 sounds like a good price...! I paid half that for bellows and shift cable work a few years back, so for an engine job of that magnitude although painful, it's not too bad. |
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