www.iFourWinns.com

Well, I'm really hoping someone can help me out here. I apologize in advance for the novel I'm about to write, but I wanted to make sure that I include any information that might be relevent to the issue at hand here.

First off... I know absolutely NOTHING about boats. I have a 1995 Four Winns Horizon 190, which I just bought about a week ago. All I really know is what the guy told me, that sold it to me. When I bought it, he suggested that I keep the blower on, not just for the intial few minutes while I'm prepping the boat, but to keep it on the whole time I'm using the boat. He also told me he never had a problem with water, but said if I ever find myself in some emergency situation where I'm filled with water, to switch on the bilge pump.

**On a side note, I am a little confused because I've had some people tell me that my bilge pump should automatically go on if there's water in the boat. The first week it was sitting in my driveway, we had a downpour of rain and the boat filled up with water in the motor but never emptied on its own until I manually flipped the switch.**

In addition to the general "how to's", he told me he had JUST replaced the impellar and had also removed the depth finder so there was a small hole (above the water line) that he wanted me to make sure I immediately sealed. I did seal the small hole. So now that the boat is docked in the water, I've only used it a couple of times. The first time, no problems and I left it in the water for a week. When I cam back over the 4th of July weekend to use it, everything was fine. No water in the motor. I used it Saturday, no problem. On Sunday I noticed while boating that the floor was soaked so I looked in the motor and saw that the boat was filled with water all the way up to the floor boards! I immediately put on the bilge pump and shut off the boat for a bit to let it drain, which took FOREVER!

Now the blower won't work, at all. Doesn't even turn on. I pulled the boat out of the water and let it completely drain. and then stuck a house down into the motor to see if I could determine where the water was coming in from, by adding more... remember when I said I know NOTHING about about boats?!? This is the difficult part for me to explain, when I put a small amount of water back into the motor I could see it leaking out from the back of the boat. So basically where the prop is mounted to the fiberglass of the boat, directly above the drain plug, is where I can see the water flowing OUT of the boat, so I can only assume that's also where it's coming in. However I can't see well enough inside the motor to see if anything is obviously broken, cracked, loose etc.

**Please note the leak is most definitely NOT coming from the small hole that I sealed, which is well above where any water has reached**

Any suggestions of what the problem is or tips of how I could fix this? My immediate thought was to use a sealant around that entire black piece that's mounted onto the fiberglass, to stop any water from getting in, but I don't want to do a quick fix and neglect the actual problem if it's going to cause me more pain in the future. However, I also don't want to sink thousands of dollars into a repair on a boat I've only had for a week. I'd really hate to think that the guy who sold me this knew what was going on but took advantage of the fact that I'm a woman, clueless when it comes to boats and failed to tell me what was REALLY wrong with it.

I understand repairs are to be expected on a used boat that's 20 years old, but I certainly wasn't expecting it to fall apart after a week, especially after he really painted this picture that it was in perfect condition and wasn't having any problems whatsoever at all.

Please help, I'm so frustrated right now! I have a boat I can't even use now!

I believe you mean water is leaking into the BILGE and not the MOTOR? The BILGE is the area below deck where the MOTOR is.

_________________
NEW - 2000 Cobalt 246 w/454 Magnum 385HP | SOLD - 2000 FW Horizon 180 LS w/5.0Gi 250HP Volvo Penta

I'm going to say this before anything else. I STRONGLY urge you to get this thing to a qualified marine mechanic. However, you are here and posting so that means you've probably already considered that and you are trying to save yourself some money and see if you can figure it out on your own. And there's nothing wrong with that, but in order for us to help you (if we can) there are a few things to get figured out first. This will seem pretty complicated as you learn, but Google and boards like this are your friend for sure.

First, you need to learn a *little* bit of terminology. Anything that comes out of the back of the boat above the drain plug is referred to as the boat's outdrive. The part of the boat where the drain plug is (and the part to which the outdrive and its housing are mounted) is called the transom. The outdrive is mounted to the transom, and will be one of two kinds: Volvo or Mercruiser.

Which outdrive do you have?
A Volvo?


Or a Mercruiser?


The images may not be a perfect match, but Volvo is generally gray colored and a Merc is generally black.

Once you ID that for us, tell us where the water is coming out. Is it coming out from the outdrive housing that is mounted to the transom? If so, that is totally normal because that is the water that has cycled through the engine for cooling purposes and is now being discharged so that new fresh water can be taken into the engine to continue cooling the engine. Once you figure that out (or verify it for us) that should put you at ease.

Second, if you are ever going to run the boat out of the water, you MUST use a garden hose and an attachment to hook to the lower part of the outdrive to get water into the motor to keep it cool. It will look something like this:

On the shelf at local store or on website you use:


Where to hook boat with hose:

It goes on those slotted-looking holes-there is a set of them on each side of the lower half of the outdrive. This part of the outdrive (near the prop) is called the lower unit. These are raw water intake holes and they suck water in to cool the engine.

Now, to your weekend issues. You will somehow need verify that you sealed the hole correctly. What material did you use? How do you know it isn't leaking? Are you confident enough in your ability to remove your repair and re-do it if you discover that the material you used was insufficient or that the repair area is leaking?

The fact that you left it in the water for a week and came back to it being fine (no water in engine compartment) *MIGHT* (I STRESS *MIGHT*) indicate that it was sufficient. However, the fact that you had a boat full of water after using it suggests that the sealing of the hole might not be very good when the boat is moving. Maybe it is good enough to only hold while sitting but not while underway?

Another possibility is a hose that is leaking water into the engine compartment with the boat running. The best way to find this out is on dry land using the garden hose attachment above. Make sure you have the tiny holes down by the propeller covered and the hose turned on fully. DO NOT PUT IT IN GEAR. Just run it in neutral. With it running on dry land, closely observe the engine compartment for leaks. Run it with the transom plug in so that any leak will accumulate. If you leave the transom plug out, it may be confusing whether the water you're seeing back there is coming out of the transom plug (which means the water is draining from inside the boat) or whether it is just the normal discharge water.

Another possibility is a torn/crack bellows in the outdrive. This bellows lives inside of the outdrive and it is what keeps water away from the driveshaft and/or the exhaust tube when the outdrive is moved up or down. It flexes as the outdrive moves. Without knowing your equipment, it is pretty difficult to know what yours has specifically. But the main info to know is that a bellows gets cracked and can tear just with mere age. If they are the originals on this 20 year-old boat, they are suspect. If your engine running test does not ID a leak in the engine compartment, this is where I'd be looking next if I were you. And given your limited boat knowledge/experience, I'd let a mechanic handle this repair if I were you. Tough to say whether this is your problem. If the bellows were already torn you'd have probably discovered lots of water when you arrived to use the boat. However, you could have torn it while using it (not through any fault of yours but merely BECAUSE BOAT) and would have no way to know until water starts to leak in.

Final possibility is that you have a leak AT the transom where the outdrive assembly is mounted to the transom. I'd only suspect this after eliminating the other 3 possibilities above.

Give us some more info and we will try to help you as best we can. Lots of sharp guys on this forum.

_________________
Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)

You, unfortunately, probably have a rotten transom. Pretty common in Four-Winns of that era. I know. I had a 93 190 with one. If water is coming from the transom-plate, between the fiberglass and the plate. That's a problem. There is a seal in there that could possibly be bad, but the likelihood of it being that is slim. Sealing around the outer-perimeter is just a band-aid over a bullet-hole.

_________________


Jimbo
Na. Ga.

2000 170 Horizon LS
4.3GL

Thank you all so much for such a quick response.

I most definitely have considered taking it to a qualified marine mechanic, and more than likely will end up taking it in, but wanted to try and pinpoint it first so I can call around to get estimates for the exact problem (providing I figure that out). I also just like to know these things in general because I'm really big on on DIY type stuff and like to understand what's going on for future reference.

So to answer a few questions...

Yes, the water is leaking into the compartment where the motor is stored, the bilge. Not the actual motor itself. Learning these key words makes a huge difference!

The outdrive is a Volvo and I do have a pair of the muffs from a boat my dad used to have. Are there certain sizes for certain boats or will I be okay using the pair I have?

As far as the hole I sealed. Now that I understand what exactly the transom is, that's where the hole is. There was a hole, already sealed on the transom, to the right of the outdrive but near the very top. I'd say a little over a foot from the water line when resting. The hole I sealed is in the same location on the left hand side of the outdrive. I used a marine sealant from Home Depot. Can't recall the brand off hand. But it specifically said it was meant for boats. I will say though that I sealed the hole only from the outside, not the inside as well. Didn't even give that a thought and didn't think I could get to it from inside but I am able to reach it. I am confident in removing what is there and resealing it if necessary but I will be sure to seal it from both ends. I also let it set over 24 hours before putting it in the water. With that being said, I am still pretty confident this is not where the water is coming in from because once I was able to empty the bilge, I turned everything off and while beached in 3 foot deep water, I could hear a constant stream of water flowing into the boat, I just couldn't see where it was coming from inside. I was hoping to see some bubbles flowing but couldn't see anything.

I will have to attempt some of the things you suggested tomorrow because I'm not currently where the boat is.

I'm attempting to attach some photos on here, but I'm using an iPhone and it's not working so well. I'm going to send this for now and try to add the photos after.

Well no luck with a picture on here. I'll have to wait til I'm at a computer tomorrow.

The picture I was going to post just showed where the water was coming from. Providing I'm understand everything I learned today, lol. Then the water is coming from between the transom and the transom plate. Hopefully I'm explaining that correctly.

I would assume it's also rather low in that area, because once the bilge was empty, I used the garden hose to add water to the bilge and it was less than a minute of running water being added that I stopped it to check for a leak and it was already flowing out from the area I described.

Read this thread- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14132 It may be what you are facing. Hope not, but it's a high possibility.

_________________


Jimbo
Na. Ga.

2000 170 Horizon LS
4.3GL

Where are you located? Someone here might be able to suggest a trustworthy marine mechanic near you.

_________________
NEW - 2000 Cobalt 246 w/454 Magnum 385HP | SOLD - 2000 FW Horizon 180 LS w/5.0Gi 250HP Volvo Penta

First of all, welcome to the forum. You did exactly the right thing by leaving a long and descriptive post. The more detail you give, the better.

It sounds like it is already determined that water is leaking between the fiberglass transom and the "transom shield" (the part of the "outdrive" that is closest to the transom). The most likely causes are:
1. Loose attachment nuts, that loosened over time (that are behind the engine, inside the transom)
2. Rotten wood in transom (which allows the attachment to be come loose)
3. Leaking "Drive Bellows" (under the outdrive, there are two large rubber tubes with an accordion shape...the upper one is the Drive Bellows and should be in good condition with no leaks. The bottom one is an exhaust bellow, and it is actually normal for the bottom one to have slots in it. It's OK if the bottom one leaks.

It does not sound like #3 is the problem, because you were able to get water to come out from the inside when you put a hose in it. The drive bellows is fairly high, and you would not have been able to put in enough water to have it come out from there. That leaves #1 and #2.

It is a little strange that your boat did not leak at first. I'm curious if you see any sealant (like bathtub caulk) around the edges of where the outdrive meets the transom. Normally, there is no such sealant. If there is, then your seller must have known about the problem, and that could explain why it didn't leak at first. (it held for a while, but then gave in to the movements of the rotten transom?). Or maybe your Drive Bellows just started leaking...that would be a less costly scenario.

I would suggest that you take it to a mechanic for a diagnosis and estimate. If it is a rotten transom, then they would probably refer you to a different shop for fiberglass/wood repair. At that point you would want to get 2-3 estimates. If they say the Drive Bellows needs replacing...just have them do it. If they say the attachment nuts are loose, but they are not sure if that will fix the problem...then go ahead and have them tighten them and see how it goes from there.

You have also noted that your bilge pump does not come on automatically. That needs to be fixed. Apparently your "Float Switch" is not working, or is not wired properly. That could be a DIY project if you want...just look up "Float Switch" for more info.

Unfortunately, because you had an amount of water in the boat that filled the bilge to the top, your engine's starter would have been under water. It is unfortunate that the starter is mounted near the bottom of the engine where it can get wet so easily. My starter got submerged like this, and two months later it was quitting and I had to replace it. Changing a starter can be easy to hard depending how much room your boat has around the engine. http://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14136

_________________

"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings

Jimbo... I certainly hope a major repair like that is not what I'm facing. I can at least safely say that my leak is not nearly as substantial as what you see pouring out on that boat.

Gottwhat... I'm actually pretty close to you, in Michigan myself. But I keep the boat out in Gregory (near Pinckney). Not sure if anyone is familiar with N K Marine in Gregory, but they are literally right next door to me. Which is convenient, but then again I also feel very obligated to just go with them because they're right there. But I'm still interested in knowing if there's a better place out there to handle the issues. I'd be willing to trailer it someplace else if they're going to do a better job or if there's a significant difference in price. The turn around time at N K Marine is also not very ideal (although I might face the same issue anyplace else). They've already told me it'll be atleast 7-10 days before they can even look at it, and then repair time on top of that. I'm impatient and hoping to not have my new summer toy tied up for several weeks!

Rpengr... You mentioned that the starter probably got wet from all the water that was taken in. When I first got the boat, all the rain we took in filled the bilge just about as high, but once it drained, my blower still worked. Any chance that it could take time to dry out and work on it's own again? I also didn't notice any sealant around the transom itself. The only other place that I really noticed sealant was around the plug. You did also mention the drive bellows. I used my phone to take a bunch of pictures of what I wasn't able to see when this happened and managed to get a picture of what I believe you are referring to, but from the inside. It's hard to tell in the picture, but I couldn't tell if it looked damanged, or maybe its just the way the picture took. Maybe you guys will be able to see better, but to your point of me filling the bilge with water, I'm pretty sure the water I added didn't go above what I'm going to show you, so the water wouldn't have started leaking out right away.

Okay let's see if I do these photos right...

This is just showing the water that was in the bilge, however this is after it started draining. The water was up to carpet when I noticed it and it probably took about 2 hours for it to intake all of that water.

http://village.photos/images/user/eb88bed7-ff58-483e-a1a3-9a6c47a11c62/resized_da17d703-be42-4012-a724-b4e58f795aa4.JPG

The next link is showing where the water is leaking from.

http://village.photos/images/user/eb88bed7-ff58-483e-a1a3-9a6c47a11c62/resized_f4747663-75e9-4ea2-8a4e-b644be3a360e.JPG

And finally, the last photo is what I believe could be one of the drive bellows? It was definetely the acordian style tube. I circled in red where I feel it looks like it *might* be damaged. Maybe it's just the angle of the photo or something though.

http://village.photos/images/user/eb88bed7-ff58-483e-a1a3-9a6c47a11c62/resized_89b8b5f8-20ab-4c94-98b2-bafb21ebf930.jpg

The sealer around the drain it suggests there was a previous concern. Unfortunately there is not
as easy solution to this problem and you have to decide if the boat is worth reparing.
I had similar issues with my '88 and that needed to have the old deck ripped out and stringers repaired; new deck installed. That was 8 years ago and the boat is still solid.
So when people ask me if they should buy a 10,15 or 20 year old boat I tell em to keep saving money and get a 3-5 year old boat so you don't wind up with major repairs so soon. And consider modern outboard power the maintenance will be much less and they are safer in several ways.
So you have to decide what to do. If it's only the transom seal the whole power train still has to come out.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

I can't view that video so I'm sort of in the dark on this now.

The pic you have that you think is the bellows looks to me like ducting for the blower.

The transom area surround the drainplug looks like a gawd-awful repair attempted by someone who either had no clue what they were doing or by someone trying to cover up transom rot. I'd bet you $4.71 that the transom is rotted around the drain plug assembly and that your leak is coming from there. For your sake, I hope you have only a small amount of transom rot around the drain plug assembly. I'm not optimistic, though. Once that thing starts leaking the wood is going to absorb a lot of water and it may have transferred water throughout the entire transom.

Hate to be doom and gloom on this one but you should prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

_________________
Paul
2007 Four Winns Horizon 220
Mercruiser 350 Mag MPI w/ Bravo III Drive
2004 Ford Explorer Limited (V8-AWD)
Pomme de Terre Lake (Southwest Missouri)

Your last pic is the hose for the blower.
The driveshaft bellows and exhaust bellows are outside between the transom mount and the drive; tilt up the drive and you can see them. Just replace the blower; they don't last forever; I've replaced
mine 2x in 13 seasons of salt water boating.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Well this is super depressing to know that I spent 2 years searching for a perfect boat for myself and wound up pissing away my entire savings on "the one" to find out I'm probably going to be stuck with a major repair that isn't even worth the value of the boat to begin with.

I really appreciate everyone's help with this.

I'm going to drive out there today to take a closer look at everything, now that I have a better idea of what I'm looking for and try out a few of the methods that were suggested to pinpoint the problem. Then I guess I'll be taking it in to the pro's to start getting some estimates.

I know there were a few potential problems suggested here... Any chance you guys could give me a rough idea of what to expect for any of these repairs? That way I can at least compare the estimates to make sure I'm not getting ripped off anymore than I already have been.

That looks to me like a blower vent hose on the inside of the boat? The bellows will be on the outside of the boat, between the transom shield and the drive, and expand out when you trim the drive up..

_________________


2004 Four Winns 328 Vista
1997 Larson Cabrio 290 - sold
1988 Rinker Fiesta Vee 248 - sold