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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:53 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Took the boat in for Annual Winterize -- got a call from mechanic asking me to come down. Here is the lowdown....

He told me:

The Stern Drive is separating from the transom.
He could lift the stern drive about ½ or slightly more, so there was wiggle room.
When in reverse, the stern lifts and water enters the boat (this was evidenced by the mysterious water in the bilge this summer – not a lot, about 3inches maybe)(it was salt water-We run in Salish Sea-so it was new)
He said this model was built for only two years and the cut-out hole is subject to this happening, especially after 26 years+.
He noted that the back end of the engine shows salt water crust on it.

The repair:
He would need to remove the DRIVE and ENGINE and then evaluate to proceed. If so...
He would clean the transom hole.
He would RE-INFORCE the bottom of the transom hole with a piece of aluminum or steel to prevent this from happening again.
While he had it apart he would clean the stern drive and back of the engine.
He even suggested that I replace the engine while it is out because it is a model no longer used and parts are tough to find. My call. About $1500 for new engine.
This would be a long-term job. Probably get it back in February or March.
He said it would be at least $4k. Most of it is labor, unless he sees parts that need to be replaced beyond repairing the new transom opening.
The boat could sell, he thinks, for around 9 or 10K if operable.

What is your valued opinion? Anyone see this before?

Mark
Four Winns
1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta Drive)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:20 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
Unless he is also digging out all the rotted transom wood that’s not the right way to repair it. I would ask if he’s doing the wood & glass work. If not have him pull the engine & drive and have a fiberglass shop do the ‘glass work. Before agreeing to replace the engine I’d do diagnostic tests such as a compression test & oil analysis before replacing the engine. You’re not getting new for 1500 bucks either. That will barely cover a reman long block. A new long block is over 4000 now, that’s for a GM engine based on what he said you may have a Ford 5 liter. There are no new Ford Marine engines out there only reman. I was able to re hab my old 4.3 V6 with a pair of reman cyl heads & new gaskets. Total cost $800 plus my labor.
Ask lots of questions first!

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:00 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Always good advice, Lou.

Here's more info since my post:

A mechanic in the San Juan Islands who has done extensive work on my boat in the past reminded me of an incident where my stern took a slight bump into a wall when backing it up. Straight on, which is important to note. It was very light and so incidental no one thought it meant anything. A prop blade edge was slightly roughed up, but I was able to use a file to get it all even. It performed just fine and never thought of any other consequences. But the bilge did fill with a couple of inches of water the first time I took it out (and every time thereafter). Interestingly enough, the more I used REVERSE the more water was in there. When I would never have occasion to put it into reverse (straight out off marina dock and circle back in, there was very little water in the bilge. I never made the connection.

He thinks the seal was damaged but not fatally and will take off the drive and pull the engine to assess it for me. His labor is way cheaper than mainland labor -- and being that it is winter he will be happy to take it all apart for me and, if worth the effort, fix it.

He also told me to stick with my engine, now that we (he, mostly) has it tuned up and running well. "We know what we have with your engine. We don't know about a reman."

SO he will get it sometime next month and will have all winter to work on it when he can. With any luck it is as straightforward as he says might be.

If there's any broken glass we can have a shop there do it, but he is not sold that it will be necessary.

Thank you Lou, and to anyone else in the future who might read this post.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:26 am 
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Well let's hope that it is the seal and not the transom itself. Certainly it could be that. While you have it apart, if the transom is still good, have him seal the wood edges of the cut out with epoxy resin, just in case water gets in the wood will be sealed. Also, same thing for the 6 holes for the studs that go through the transom mount. This is where water gets in and rots transoms.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:57 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Location: Oregon, USA
Will do, Lou. If he pulls it apart and it's massive corruption of the transom it could break the proverbial camel's back. How much more do I want to pout into the boat that is nearing 30-years old (although incredibly well-taken care of)(save for some stupid mistakes)

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:06 pm 
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We’ll see what you find. If you wind up having to do it it’s not the worst thing in the world. 15 years ago I had to replace the deck & repair stringers in mine. But 15 years later still good. Gel coat (red/maroon) faded real bad tried wet sanding & buffing but didn’t last. So had it painted in red Imron 10 years ago still looks new. Last major repair was the top end overhaul of the engine (this was the easiest for me did it all myself). That was a lot of money but 20 years of ownership. Look at what new costs (55-60K) even used is very expensive, so what would you replace it with?

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:29 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Since you asked...

We bought the boat for 16,000 dollars in 2002. So, twenty years later, I have probably put an additional 25,000 into maintenance, storage, engine rebuild, new exhaust manifolds, injectors, fuel pumps, trailer repairs, etc. After all the minor and major incidents with the engine, it now runs great. As it was stored indoors all this time the glass is fantastic. We are later in life now, late 60's. Our kids are grown now, and we only use the boat once a year, for one week, in the San Juan Islands. It is an incredible convenience and joy to go between islands at your whim - see places and wildlife normal tourists do not get a whiff of.

For that reason we never sold the boat -- just kept it probably longer than we should have.

I know if I need to spend big money on this ($2500 is what my guy says it will cost me -- even less if the transom repair is easy) the conversation about selling will become more serious. New boats like mine are selling close to 100K. For a while same used models could run up over 20K - then interest rates hit with inflation and people are thinking twice about that kind of investment. And the mechanic at the local shop saying it would be worth 10K probably isn't far off because of market conditions. But I always maintained my boat for resale in the future. I know whoever buys it at whatever price would get a solid, well kept vessel. When people see it they tell me it looks new.

So I don't mind shelling out the $$ for these repairs. If I sell I know I will not lose money on this repair. I'll get one more July out of it and then make the decision. Wild card: Storage is getting insanely expensive.

Mark

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:28 pm 
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Interesting....I figure I have about 15 grand total in mine, including what I paid for it in 2002 ($4200), it really owe me nothing at this point. For the past 15 years or so I have done all the repairs & maintenance. Has not been back to a mechanic, even once since 2006 when I had some work done to it. We can store it in the driveway (free) I keep it on a salt water mooring, so the boat is not pristine by any stretch but no boats here are after they are a few years old. For what it would cost to replace with new or near new, I could (and should) buy a classic muscle car that won't lose value. So every couple years I fix this, I fix that but use it every year and enjoy the natural beauty of Long Island's marine enviroment. Still running on the original short block, new heads were installed by me 5 years ago and the drive & transom mount are original, very few repairs to the Cobra system...

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:10 am 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Okay -- while I am waiting for my mechanic to open an inside bay (he won't have one until December 20th), my boat sits outside - un-winterized - and we are about to go sub-freezing for a few days.

we already had ONE 31-degree night. Scared the you-know-what out of me. I checked the engine bilge as I knew there was some water at the bottom. That water was not frozen or with a film of ice present over it at all. I figured one night at 31 was not going to wreck things. But now we are headed for a few days or longer of temps in the 20's.

Any suggestions on how I can keep the engine "warm" so it doesn't freeze and crack?

I have a shop light (old school with single lightbulb) I could place in there. Would that keep things warm without a fire danger? An electric blanket over the top of the engine? A heating pad? Small Space heater in the cockpit and leave engine compartment open? A taller oil-type heater I could put on low? The boat will be parked in front of my house so I will have ability to check it. I can place a transmittable thermometer sensor inside to track temp.

Sounds crazy, but I don't know what to do next. It doesn't make sense to "winterize" ($400) when the engine will be pulled in due time. Once it is indoors inside a shop it is no longer a risk.

Thoughts?




I

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:13 am 
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OK you can try the light bulb method, I have never done it but many have reported success with this method however what if the bulb burns out unbeknownst to you?!
What I'd do:
remove whatever you need to remove (could be rear seats, bulkheads etc) to get at:
large front hose from the front water pump to thermostat housing, disconnect it at the pump
2 drain plugs on the engine, one on each side low down just above the oil pan, remove these plugs and poke the holes with a thin screwdriver or coat hanger wire to make sure they drain
1 drain plug on each exhaust manifold same as above
disconnect the raw water intake hose that goes from the transom mount to the impeller housing (you have an engine mounted impeller like a Volvo correct?) hold it down to drain, and let the impeller housing drain.
Now you can rest easy the engine is protected. I put a bit of gasket sealer on each drain plug and re-install them, that prevents rust from forming over the winter.
while there are other things to do during winterization, this is the ONE thing you MUST do to prevent freeze damage and losing the engine. And once you do it, NOW, you know how to do it. NO need to pay that much when all you are doing is, changing the motor oil, fogging the engine, drain it, and change the oil in the outdrive. This is really simple stuff, the problem with many I/O boats is the access is bad, it can be a pain, but it has to get done.
My brother has a 2020 Chapparal with the new Merc 4.5 V6, he ran out of time to winterize this year but I just showed him how to use the Merc easy drain system, and it is fine, we will fill it up with antifreeze and change motor oil and drive oil in the spring.

So that's my advice, once you get the seats etc out of the way, it should take about 1-2 hrs, you will feel a bit stiff after crawling around in the bilge but no worries with all the water out.
I modified mine to make it easier to get the seats out of the way, one year pulling out that huge bench seat was just too much so I got rid of it & repalced it with 2 36" long bench seats for a pontoon boat, they are just a press fit between the gunnels, and the wood behind them, I cut in half and put hinges on them to make it open like a door.
Here's a schematic of what I did, back in I think 2007 or so, made it much easier. Seats go in front of the wood bulkheads...
during winterizing it back in 2007, wide open access:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pz3pzuz8kuvm ... s.jpg?dl=0

with the seats in place:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ao7q5x2adv5z0 ... p.JPG?dl=0

Mine's already winterized we get temps in the 20s starting in November so I ususally do it the first week in Nov. In addition to draining it I also fill the engine and manifolds with no tox antifreeze, not the cheap -50 or -60 stuff (that gets hard below 10*F) but I use either -100 West Marine AF, or I mix up my own from Sierra no tox AF (freeze protection down to about -30*F).

been doing this myself, about 20 years.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:38 pm 
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Location: Long Island NY
https://www.crowleymarine.com/d/tech_ar ... -procedure

Ok this is for the older Cobra system but if you have a Ford engine you have either the joint venture OMC Cobra (drive painted charcoal color) or the Volvo SX (drive painted silver) they are identical, the only difference from these instructions is your impeller is mounted on the engine instead of in the drive like the original 86-93 model Cobras. But you are going to disconnect the raw water intake hose at the impeller and let it drain, basically the same idea. Also yours might not have the drain plugs on the transom mount referred to at the end, that was on the pure OMC design, not the joint venture with Volvo design.
Take a look at it and see if it makes sense to you. If you can do it yourself, great!
NOTE:
scroll down to the part for 5.0 and 5.8 liter engines, those are the Fords.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:26 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
Lou it worked like a charm. My model four winns has lots of space to move around the motor front and sides so this was no problem, really.

I followed the excellent 5.0-5.8 EFI directions on the link, and everything was where the pictures said it was, EXCEPT the rubber hose above the drain plug starboard and port. Could not find it. Not sure if that's critical. Aside from that, a HEALTHY amount of water drained from the engine via hoses and drain plugs. Not discolored or with any gunk in it at all. Very clear. I Took the shop vac and cleared the bilge of all water to the point were it is dry. Tilted drive down to lowest angle and some, but not a lot of water came out.

So, having done this -- not necessary to put a heater under the cockpit cover? I have one that will keep things warm in the cockpit (I can leave the engine cover off) but not hot. Or can I put the boat back into outside storage (where there is no electric power). By week's end here in Portland, our night temps will dip into the 29-35 degree range, highs in the 40's.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
5.0fi/SX engine (Volvo Penta)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:30 pm 
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Can you be more specific about the hose that you couldn't find, just want to make sure that it isn't a critical area to drain....
Glad you got it, see it is not that hard.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:35 pm 
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Shark

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Oregon, USA
A picture is on the "crowleymarine" link you posted. Scroll down to the 5.0 to 5.8L engine. When it specifies the drain plugs there is a hose it says to "remove" (#1). But there was none. Drain plug port starboard was easy, port was a lot further back. But no hose.

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Four Winns 1996 Sundowner 205
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:01 am 
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Ok I'm going to post links to better pix, from the OMC parts catalog so you can see what they are talking about there. I think what you're referring to is the hoses that feed the exhaust manifolds on each side (in the front, maybe under other hoses/spark plug wires. Those manifolds are the same casting for each side, they have a nipple on the front and rear, the front one has the hose attached to feed water, the rear one just has a rubber cap. As far as I know there isn't a drain plug on these, so you either disconnect the hose at the front or you remove the cap at the rear to drain. And you must drain these just as you drained the engine.
Take a look at this:

https://www.crowleymarine.com/omc/oem-p ... st-cooling

hoses are parts # 15 & 16, cap is part # 22, just remove whichever one you have the easiest access to, it will drain the same either way.

Sounds like you drained the big hose from the front water pump # 13, disconnected at the bottom right?
and you did both drain plugs on the engine block, correct?

Ok then there is the raw water intake hose. This hose brings water from the transom mount, to the impeller housing on mounted on the lower starboard side of the engine. In the rear, it connects to the power steering cooler, which is on the back of the engine, very hard to get at. This can hold water so you want to get it out. Here's what I have done....I tried getting at it to remove the drain plug in the cooler (some have this some don't) but it is VERY hard to reach, then you can drop the plug in the bilge, that will ruin your day. SO....what I started doing about 15 years ago was this: Put the drive down all the way. Then find the hose that comes forward from the transom mount to the impeller housing and disconnect it at the impeller housing, hold it down so it drains any water. Then get a gallon of -100 marine antifreeze from West Marine, and pour it in the hose till it runs out the water intakes, this will push any residual water out of the hoses and P/S cooler. I've been doing it that way for 15+ years in temps as low as zero*F and no freeze ups. Re-connect that hose at the impeller housing. What I might also do, is follow the other hose on the impeller housing up to the thermostat housing. Disconnect it there, and then fill that hose with the same Antifreeze, and then re-connect, that will push any water out of the impeller housing. Then reconnect that hose. This way you will avoid expensive freeze damage. I also fill the engine and manifolds with the same antifreeze, but that is optional, I am in a salt water region so it helps reduce internal corrosion.

I also put marine grease (I like Evinrude triple guard, or Lucas marine grease, you can use the Mercruiser stuff too) on all the nipples that hoses fit onto, this keeps them from rusting in place and they will come off easy next time you winterize.

Any other questions, just ask. If you can do this yourself, and learn how to change the oil (easy the filter for the FoMoCo 5.0 is right up front, you just need a vacuum pump that connects to your dipstick) and the drive oil (also easy, just get a lube pump for the 1 qt bottles of gear lube) you can do it ALL yourself.

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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