www.iFourWinns.com

I have a 2004 205 Sundowner powered by a merc 350 mpi and the sea water pump is shot. I have taken it to a four winns Dealer to have the pumps impellor fitted. Could you imagine my suprise when the sevice manager told me they would have to take the engine out of the boat to get to it. Good one Four winns 100% on the design if this is actually the case. Hsa anyone out there had the same problem. Please someone reply as summer is running out quick down under.

I'm guessing you have a Bravo III drive? I have an '04 225 Sundowner with the VP drive, and I just changed my impeller when I winterized it. It wasn't the easiest, but only took about 15-20 minutes, and I did not have to remove the engine.

Are you talking about the big water pump, or the rubber impeller?

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225

I can well imagine that on a 205 that access is tighter than on a 225 or 245, especially on the later models of any of these that do not have the removable engine compartment side panels (it used to be very easy on my '99 225 once they were removed); On my '04 245 access to the VP water pump is not easy, with multiple scratches and bruises on my arms being the order of the day each time the pump impellor was removed! There isn't quite enough room for me to reach the pump and bracket from above (not helped by the horizontal FWC heat exchanger being there). I have to get access to it by getting into the starboard side of the engine compartment and reaching round to the front of the engine. From photos I have seen of the 350 MPi engine with Bravo drive, the pump is low down on the starboard side. If access is an issue, is removing the exhaust manifold and riser to give improved accessability an option, instead of having to take the whole engine (and outdrive) out?

To make life easier with my VP setup (especially in case I have to change an impellor at sea in an emergency) I have:

Replaced the 4 hexagon headed brass screws holding on on the pump cover with stainless M5 cap head "allen" bolts. ( plus I keep a spare 10 or so on board in case I drop/ temporarily lose one or two!)

Cut the retaining bracket in half. One half now stays permanently attached to the block (the bolt heads are not easy to reach). An extra price of steel is bolted to that half, and the remainder of the bracket is dowelled and bolted on via captive studs fitted to that second piece of steel. Now I just have to undo 2 easily reachable locknuts and the bracket comes off and back on very easily, allowing the pump cover to be removed.

Later models have a thinner retaining bracket giving easier access to the bolts, so this modification would not be any advantage ( the later retainer locates in a hole in a lug on the pump body, rather than via a rubber piece that locates between the inlet and outlet hoses.

Graham

get a second opinion

I had the same drama with my 2004 sundowner 5.0L V8 bravo1

but then i went to another mechanic who was able to extract the impeller without too much difficulty. He said it just meant being careful, mostly with putting the new one in to make sure the seal is fitted properly. Because the pump is on the starboard front, it sits up against the cabin liner and isnt really accessable.

in short, find a mechanic that looks like a jockey !!!

taking the engine out every 150-200 hours to change a A$50 part is stupid...

are Four Winns designers Japanese ? this reminds me of the time i had to replace a 20cent seal on the gear change rod of a 250cc honda. There was a flange which meant the seal had to be pushed into place from the inside. ie strip the entire engine down to the big end, and then to top it off, the factory manual had the timing and position settings for replacing the camshafts out by 180degrees. luckily I had a spare head lying around to replace all the bent valves !!!

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I have a sundowner 205 2005 with the 350mag mpi bravo 1, I had mine done, wasnt easy, the mercury mechanic charged me four hours labour plus parts, but did not remove the engine.

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2005 Four Winns Sundowner (Sold)
350 MAG B1

One thing I do not like about newer Four Winns, especially the smaller bowriders, is that there is all this molded in fiberglass around the engine that makes engine access even harder than it needs to be. On my old '88 200 there is no such 'glass, just wood panels that can be removed and slid out of the way. With this set up I can reach anything on the engine without a real struggle even the non-remote oil filter!
As far as impellers, the best design I have ever seen is my OMC Cobra. No struggling in the engine compartment or dropping the lower unit like on an Alpha. You walk around the rear of the boat, remove 3 bolts in the plastic cover at the rear of the upper unit, and the impeller housing (3 more bolts) is right under that. 1/2 hr job! You could even do it in the water hanging off the swim platform if you had to!

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Hey Thanks everyone foryour replys. I have since contacted four winns in the USA and I'm still getting conflicting stories. I got told by there auto respose team via an email that i would be best to check with a dealer here in Australia and it is possible the engine may have to be removed. CRAZY! I then phoned Four Wins in the USA to talk to someone which I got a hold of them and I was told that it was his understanding that four winns had never designed a boat that the engine would have to be removed to replace and raw water pump impellor. I told him that is not what i have been told by one of there dealers here in Australia. He then put me on hold and came back with this. Ifact he had just been made aware that the 2004 models did actually have an issue with the changing of theimpellor and that on the later models four winn had changed the design slightly by putting a hole at the starboard side near the step in the cockpit to allow access to the impellor. Basically i got from him that this is what he was sayng i should do. Cut a hole in that position and put a cover there like the inspection one for the fuel cell in the floor of the cockpit. the Screw type cover. I have since inspected the boat and found that doing this will not give suitable access at all. What is going on with four winn do they really know there boats or what. There was a reply on this forum to my problem and he had a 2005 205 with the same power plant and leg he has said he didnt have to remove the engine so Im wondering now if the boat he has is infact one of the ones fourwinns changed the design on if so maybe we could chat further. If anyone eles has anything that could help along that would be great...


Thanks again everyone

That's just crazy, I bet a good independent shop could figure out how to get that changed, and cutting an access hole may work, certainly easier than pulling the engine! What happens when you have to change the starter, same thing? I was able to do that in about 1/2 hr on the old '88 Horizon. Seems like newer boats are like newer cars, nice to have, great features, but not that much thought given to service issues.

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88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Can you take a pic of the front of your engine/access area and post it? I'm 99.9% sure it is just like on my 225. I'd take some pics to compare but she's in storage for the winter now...

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225

I found some pics from when I purchased my boat. I was able to access the impeller by lying over the top of the engine, and had my arms sticking down between the front of the engine and fiberglass. I would have to look, and then get into position to access it and had to go by touch alone to get it done for the most part. It can be done though. Does yours look like this?

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225

I just replaced mine, 2006 255 Sundowner, sort of the same arangement as the pictures above. It was mostly by feel. But got it done. 1/2 Hour tops.

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2006 300 Sundancer
2007 Trailblazer LT V8
2004 Grand Prix GTP Comp G (For Sale)
Previous Boats:
2006 255 Sundowner 5.7GXI-G
2000 CrownLine 202BR
1994 Baja 180 Islander
1980 Galaxy 18' BR

Maybe a stupid question - but is the impeller in the same place on the Merc motors?

I think it's in the old alpha drives that the impeller was in the drive. With the Bravo/Merc setup - I think that changed.

Could that be the culprit?

Volvo = easy. Merc = sucks?

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2008 318 Vista -SOLD, but I am still around!
All Night Long, Seattle WA

Thankfully for me there's a lot easier access on the 245/255. In the photos see how close the starboard manifold /riser is to the side of the engine compartment opening compared to the other side, not enough room to get in like there is on the 245/255. Removing the manifold/ riser would give more room, but maybe not enough unless the mechanic was built like a stick insect ( I don't qualify!)

Mercruiser raw water pumps are engine mounted low down on the starboard side with a Bravo drive, in the outdrive on an Alpha.

Graham

Clarification: Bravo 1 has the raw water and impeller on the engine (looks like a Power Steering pump) Bravo 3 has it as part fo the out drive and bellow assembly. At least that are the differences between my Sea Ray witha Bravo 1 and my buddies (with a Bravo 3) and identical engines.

Optimus

Bravo 1 and Bravo 3 upper gearcases look externally exactly the same. Seems strange that Mercruiser would put the raw water pump on the Bravo 1 on the engine and on the Bravo 3 in the drive. ( nothing about the design of parts on boats should surprise me !). None of the schematics of the Bravo 3 I have seen make any mention of the water pump. How is the pump on the Bravo 3 driven?

Graham