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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:05 pm 
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Minnow

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ive read some stuff on this and before i get myself too wrapped up on the horror stories.

Can any of you guys set me straight on what the deal is? ive read about riser height, cam overlap etc...

if any water is getting in the cylinders, it would be on shutdown??

im an engine builder, so anyone who has in depth info on cam timing i can talk with ya..

thanks again guys


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:39 pm 
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LouC posted this link in the Engine section under the Hydra lock thread. I found it very informative.

http://www.marinemechanic.com/merc/dist ... engine.PDF

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Minnow

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good info there, ive read that.. so just be aware of riser height as a preventive measure and also watch excessive idling and run at a higher rpm before shutting down to blow water out??


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:31 pm 
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It's going to be a rarity for this to happen on a healthy engine.
My recent incident was from a simple backfire on start up, which threw my engine momentarily into a reverse rotation.
Sod's Law at it's finest. :x :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:16 pm 
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What has happened is that the valve timing has been made more aggressive on later model engines (not sure when they changed exactly) and this exacerbates exhaust reversion (pulling water back up the exhaust, under deceleration). Note that this can happen even if the engine does not diesel, or backfire. It can happen as part of normal operation. This article describes it well:

http://www.michel-christen.com/ExhaustElbows.pdf

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:32 am 
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Oldsmoduck wrote:
good info there, ive read that.. so just be aware of riser height as a preventive measure and also watch excessive idling and run at a higher rpm before shutting down to blow water out??

"excessive idling" is not an issue. As long as the engine is running, then the water is being forced out with the exhaust. Hydro Lock will not occur with the engine running.

"run at a higher rpm before shutting down to blow water out" would not help anything. After shutting down the engine, water will always go back into the exhaust pipe (the "Y-pipe" for V6/V8 engines) up to the same level as the water outside the boat.

Some people have questioned "Coming off plane too quickly and letting the wave hit the back of the boat", but that is not an issue either...as long as the engine is running. (Hydro Lock will not occur with the engine running.)

Maybe it's worth mentioning here that I had hydro lock occur on my previous boat while it was sitting quietly on the trailer. Not from rain water, but because the very old exhaust manifold rusted through the water jacket and drained it's contents into the engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:02 am 
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Minnow

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:21 pm
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LouC wrote:
What has happened is that the valve timing has been made more aggressive on later model engines (not sure when they changed exactly) and this exacerbates exhaust reversion (pulling water back up the exhaust, under deceleration). Note that this can happen even if the engine does not diesel, or backfire. It can happen as part of normal operation. This article describes it well:

http://www.michel-christen.com/ExhaustElbows.pdf



Thanks Lou, thats making sense. are there elbows available with the vacuum break in the casting? i will research this further on my own, but im just asking in case you have anything further to add. its a 99 vintage 7.4 Gi volvo's.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:14 pm 
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The availability of different styles of risers/elbows I can't say but I know that Volvo did use a type of vaccum break set up that had hoses hooked up to the exhaust risers. The idea of this was to keep vaccum from forming in the exhaust which can suck water back in under certain circumstances.
Making sure your risers are high enough (checking static water level with the boat in the water) and making sure you use the updated Volvo riser to manifold gaskets (there was an updated part for these to prevent leaks), and making sure the vaccum break hoses are hooked up right and not clogged at the riser ports will help a lot.

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4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:42 pm 
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My apologies: My comments above are directed towards the topic of "Hydro Lock" (along with Deafwish's comments), where the OP question was about "water ingestion"...two different things.

Our Hydro Lock comments are mainly about water overcoming the riser height while the engine is turned off.

Water Ingestion is about the engine sucking back droplets of water while it is running.

The article that LouC posted above is so good, I will post the Water Ingestion section here:
Quote:
Water Ingestion
Engine cooling water mixes with the exhaust at the end of the exhaust elbow to go overboard.
Under certain conditions, a fine mist or droplets of water can be drawn backward into
the exhaust passage of the exhaust elbow while the engine is idling. They can travel backward
until they ‘wet’ the vertical exhaust passage. When the engine is shut off, these droplets
flow downward and collect in the exhaust manifold runners that go to the cylinder head.
In saltwater areas, the water evaporates and leaves a salt crystal deposit in the runner. Over
time, these salt crystals will cause rust to form on the exposed surface of an open exhaust
valve. When this valve sticks, it will cause more water from the exhaust elbow discharge to
be drawn backward into the engine.
This condition is more likely to occur on engines that have exhaust systems that exit out the
boat’s hull. Sterndrive engines that have thru-prop exhaust are least likely to see this condition.
This condition is seen more in saltwater areas, but rarely seen in fresh water areas unless
there is a poor engine running condition. Look inside the exhaust passage (at hose end
of the exhaust elbow) to see if a salt or rust trail is present from that point on backward toward
the manifold. If there is, the engine could have water ingestion.

1. All engines have valve overlap, even 4 cylinder engines. Gen+ V6 and V8 engines have
more valve overlap than the older engines. The higher horsepower big block V8 engines
have more than the base big block engines. This ‘valve overlap’ coupled with the ‘tuning’
of the boat’s exhaust system can cause water ingestion. Valve overlap is more likely to
cause water ingestion at idle or low engine rpm than it is at higher engine rpm.

2. Extended idling before shutting the engine off.
a. This affects an engine with thru-hull exhaust outlets more that thru-prop exhaust
models. Because of ‘No Wake’ zones and other conditions, engines that idle 30+
minutes prior to being shut off, tend to be more likely to have water ingestion. Quiz
the boat operator about their idle times. One way to stop or minimize this condition
is to increase engine rpm (in neutral gear) to 1300 for 45 seconds then slowly return
throttle to idle position and shut the engine off.

3. Throttle ‘chops’.
a. Doing ‘throttle chops’ can cause water exiting from the exhaust elbow to be drawn
backward into the engine on either thru-hull or thru-prop exhaust engines. Also, it
can happen with the boat in the water or on a trailer with a flush device. Caution technicians
and boat owners about doing ‘throttle chops’.

4. Missing internal shutters in exhaust tips (sterndrive engines only).
a. Sterndrive engines with thru-transom exhaust are more likely to have water ingestion
if the internal shutters are missing. The exhaust hose length is short on these
installations. The internal shutters help break up the ‘tuning’ effect of the short
hoses. Install exhaust tips that have internal shutters that will not burn out or break
off. Installing exhaust tip silencers is another option. If there is room in the exhaust
hose, installing the Exhaust Resonator Kit will help correct this condition also.

5. Silent Choice type exhaust systems (sterndrive engines only).
a. Sterndrive engines equipped with Silent Choice type of exhaust system normally will
not have water ingestion if the boat owner directs the exhaust thru-prop while in ‘No
Wake’ zones or while idling for an extended time. If the exhaust system is in the ‘thruhull’
mode during this low speed operation, the engine may ingest water if the internal
shutters of the exhaust tips are missing.

6. Boat exhaust systems (engines with thru-hull exhaust only).
a. Engines with thru-hull exhaust systems can have a ‘tuning’ effect. Exhaust hose
length, 45, or 90 fittings, location of collector and/or muffler and the thru-hull exhaust
tip all can affect water ingestion. The only way to test for this condition is to
monitor the amount of water that collects in the runners of the exhaust manifold after
idling for 45 minutes. Engine has to be at normal operating temperature before starting
the idle test. Using Exhaust Resonator Kits in the exhaust hoses will help stop
the ‘tuning’ affect in the exhaust system. The Mercury Parts Exhaust Resonator Kit
does not cause any horsepower loss.

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"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Right, hydro lock where the engine will not spin over is one thing, and a bad thing at that.
More subtle, and harder to spot is water ingestion from reversion. In this case water is sucked back up the exhaust under certain conditions. While it does not hydrolock the engine, it can rust exhaust valve stems. Which can lead to valves that do not seal (idle miss, lack of power, low compression) and this by itself can lead to sucking in more water.

Ray if you can take pix of the vaccum hoses on your engine, as in where they connect to on the risers and where those hoses go, that would help the OP to make sure his engine is set up right. I would look at volvoparts.com but I have never learned Volvo's model numbering system (I'm an OMC guy lol) and I find their parts catalog very difficult to navigate.

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2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Minnow

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:21 pm
Posts: 19
LouC wrote:
The availability of different styles of risers/elbows I can't say but I know that Volvo did use a type of vaccum break set up that had hoses hooked up to the exhaust risers. The idea of this was to keep vaccum from forming in the exhaust which can suck water back in under certain circumstances.
Making sure your risers are high enough (checking static water level with the boat in the water) and making sure you use the updated Volvo riser to manifold gaskets (there was an updated part for these to prevent leaks), and making sure the vaccum break hoses are hooked up right and not clogged at the riser ports will help a lot.


awesome.. all noted. i'll check for the hoses when im working on the boat this weekend. i did some risers they are selling that have provisions for some suction port on the side of the riser, sounds like what your referring too.. i have the page bookmarked at work and im home now...

with that said, i quizzed a tech at the marina about this concern.. he said it was more related to the 8.1's? the 7.4's didnt have this issue?? this is where i get bound up on what ive read versus real techs who work on these things everyday... not doubting you at all. just relaying info...

one last thing.. he told me to stay away from all the aftermarket stuff and stick with O.E. volvo stuff... any opinions on that? kind of a you get what you pay for thing.. which i totally get if you can validate this


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:14 pm 
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FWIW i always put OEM stuff on. I find you get what you pay for. I work for an OEM in the refrigeration world. You pay a little more but you always seems to be better off in the long run!!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:55 pm 
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While I haven't had direct experience, I have read on various websites that the 8.1 was more prone to this than the 7.4 and the reason given was the overlap in the camshaft timing. So what the tech told you is true. I think as long as you have adequate static water level (perhaps the most important factor) good sealing surfaces on the manifolds and risers, the OE style riser gaskets and install those hoses if it was supposed to come with that, you should be good. Just don't anchor it from the stern which for sure can cause water to go up the exhaust.

A lot of engine problems in boats are due to a lack of maintenance on the exhaust system. We are in salt water and this is a problem you have to stay on top of or else.

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4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II


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