www.iFourWinns.com

Brett,

No problem! I am keeping my fingers crossed for ya mate! That is absolutely unacceptable deterioration on a 4 year old boat and FW needs to step up to the plate on this one.

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Brett DiMichele

And where, exactly, did the water come from and what did it get in through?

This is a good example of why it's critically important for anyone buying a used boat (regardless of brand) to get a thorough and competent survey done before purchasing it. If the problem had been there for a while a survey would quite likely have detected it. Especially if it employed the thermal imaging testing. Water intrusion is probably the #1 threat to hull integrity but one that's detectable and correctable at much lesser expense when found early.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

I looked at those pix....man that damage should not be happening with a boat that new...I bet that someone did not install the seal around the transom mounts right...and that someone would be the FW factory...not only that the plywood edge of the transom opening does not seem like it had any resin on it...
I wonder if their response has anything to do with the recent Chapter 11 filing by parent company Genmar....In this situation the best bet is to get a report from a surveyor as to the cause of that rot and present that to them and see what happens....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Without more of the story, and results from a surveyor, it's not terribly useful to throw accusations around. This was a used boat. What work, if any, was done on it before this owner took possession? What survey was done on it prior to it's purchase by the current owner? How many hours are on it? Did the previous owner have trouble with it, or abuse it?

Yes, it's terrible to see this sort of damage to what seems to be a new boat. But without more facts it's libelous, at best, to go blaming 'the factory' for it's current condition. Yes, it's within the realm of possibilities that it was a problem from the start. But with the info presented here? I don't know...

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Thanks for the responses, I will start giving Bill a couple answers.

I purchased the boat in 2006, at the time I had a complete out of water survey done, but it was non invasive. Themal imaging wasn't offered, and I would say not available.

I also checked with the dealer and made sure they had not done any major work done on hull, motor or legs. The boat had only done about 190 hours at that point.

I have since been pretty much money no object about its maintaining it. It has had bellows done, a couple of anti-fouls and normal annual services.

I have since added about 150 hours of coastal cruising taking it out to the Great barrier Reef and all around the beautiful Whitsundays here in Queensland.

There is absolutely no evidence of any previous damage. As recently as April I have the starboard motor worked on and mechanics were standing all over the engine bay and the rot wasn't noticed.

My mechanic is a very experience marine mechanic that works on hundreds of boats from 30ft to 200ft in the Mackay Marina and in his words - he has never seen anything like it.

A couple people initially said maybe the stern plates have been removed and refitted wrong, I asked about this and the response was - why would anyone remove them and if they did they should be to do it 100 times without causing the damage that has happened.

If you look at the photobucket link earlier you will see the very poor glass work under the floor on the engine bay bulkhead. We both think the damage has been caused by fresh water ingression from the bilge (the water that sits under the float switch level).

I will be getting a marine surveyor to give an opinion on when possible and I think this is what disappoints me that FW don't want to be involved in this part. If it was a little bit of rot in one spot I could understand, if it looked like it started 6 months ago I could understand. But so much structural damage thoughout the entine engine bay/ transom - I would have hoped they would want to know how it happened.

Thanks
Brett Smith

Unfortunately, my own experience with a 2004 FW is that they took little or no care with sealing exposed wood cores. Admittedly, in my case so far it only involved things like a locker lid and ther roof of the cuddy, but I have not had to dig into the transom or anything else structural ( I hope I never have to, I dread to think what I might find) .

In Australia, do you have similar regulations as in the UK; where any product sold has to be manufactured suitable for the final purpose? Clearly if a boat designed for use in water is built incorrectly, then the manufacturer or importer is liable for any issues resulting from poor build; or design. As for water getting into the bilge, it's not your fault, FW seem to have no comcept (or desire) of keeping water out of the bilges of their boats!

Graham

Thanks Graham, I have made contact with Australia "consumer style" associations to try and get more info on the path to take.

It has all come as a bit of a suprise since the boat was lifted 2 weeks ago. I honestly did not expect to have this mess.

I sort of expected (hoped) I would email FW they would say "Wow never seen this before, we wil send someone up to take a look". And take it from there !

But that wasn't to be, so every bit of advice on owners groups/associations, manufacture association is more than appreciated.

Thanks
Brett Smith.

Thanks for the added details. I'm left wondering if that '06 survey was thorough or not. And if it was, and the problem did not exist at the time, what the devil caused it to get that much worse?

But then I don't know how rapidly a leak into the coring will cause damage. All I know is that a leak during the summer that's not found by winter is a bad thing. Mainly because the wet wood expands when the freezing temperatures arrive and the fiberglass around it does not expand. This leads to the fiberglass cracking and then letting more water into the void. I don't know if that was a concern in your area.

And that doesn't do anything to solve your current problem. But the more than can be done to narrow down the source of the problem, the better. Especially when it comes to 'encouraging' the vendor to aid in solving the problem.

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-Bill Kearney, 2005 348 Vista

Thanks Bill,

No freezing not a problem here, yesterday - the middle of winter here in Australia - I was in the ocean with the kids most of the afternoon. Water temperature still about 24 Celsius/ 75.2 degrees Fahrenheit.

The survey was intructed to be comprehensive but as I said not invasive, the damage at that point I think woud have been under the genset floor and into the centre line stringers.

This week the genset comes out and the floor it sits on has to be cut out don't even want to think what I am up to on the cost side. I only hope the ingression went backwards, not forward into the cabin, if it is there I think we will need to call the boat a write off and start selling the parts.

Cheers
Brett.

Do you have any more photo's yet ?

Brett, I feel really bad for you. I own a 2000 328 vista that has no problems at all with rott. I do 90% of my own work. I look for issues when in the engine room and mine looks like a 2008. I have been around boats since 1975. I have owned 2 other four winns a 1994 258 and a 1999 278. they have been great boats. I have never seen such a problem with a boat that new. I do hope and believe that four winns will step up to the plate and at least try to access the problem and what could of caused it. I just hauled a 2000 328 from michigan to pa . I was in the engine room and everything looked good also. I do believe that this had to be a isolated case. Good luck, and please keep us posted, thanks again, Joe.

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"Lady Lexie"
Port of Chester, WV
2000 328 Vista
Towed with a Dodge Cummins!

Thanks for your comments Joe, I to was happy with the boat until I discovered this.

don't have any new photo's followme, just the photobucket post from Saturday, here it is again if you missed it.

http://s999.photobucket.com/albums/af11 ... sta%20328/

Cheers
Brett.

I know that a comparision to my 21 year old bowrider is not too relevant...but while the hull lay-up was OK, the glassing in of the wood was absolutely awful...no other word could describe it...when I removed the original rotted deck...what I found was raw wood stringers not even glassed all the way up...not glassed on top...the deck..every pentration....no sealant anywhere...and the deck was attached to the stringers with literally 100s of rusty nasty staples...each one a place where rot was starting...When I replaced it...I had the 'glass shop fix the stringers and glass them completely...the new deck was glued down with 3M 4200 and stainless screws...every screw hole was sealed with 4200...I know that mass marked boats can have shortcuts...but that's not acceptable in a boat of that price level and a 2004 at that....I don't think it's all that common for those transom seals to leak....but without knowing the history....hard to know exactly why it happened.....but if they sealed the raw edge of the plywood with epoxy....even if it leaked it would not have rotted....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

Thanks for your reply Lou,

That seems to be the general thoughts of my mechanic as well.

BTW wood rot is caused by a fungus...the wood does not have to be soaked...but damp at a certain temp...and if an area is persistently damp...the fungus will literally eat the wood...like termites but on a microscopic level...I have heard that this fungus can live only in freshwater...not salt...so such damage is usually due to rain water...but can happen with a transom leak on a fresh water used boat....after fixing a lot of rot on this boat...I am considering a newer one with composite construction for my next one...but that is only as good as the factory's workmanship....if cores are not bonded well you can still get delamination...if penetrations are not sealed...water can get in and if it freezes (and it WILL here in NY) that can cause delaminations too.

I know this stinks....my repair job cost some serious money too even though I did about 1/2 of it myself....I cut out the deck...remove all the foam...looked at the sad state of the un-glassed stringers...and didn't trust my woodworking skills to glass em in right...so I had the 'glass shop do that...then I replaced the foam...replaced the deck....realized I didn't want carpet in an open boat...definitely contributes to rot...so back to the 'glass shop...I had them glass in the new deck and gelcoat it in non skid. Now it came out great and is strong as can be....the boat is very solid and we get some big water here....I'll run this one as long as I can...the money I paid was probably close to the value of the boat...but I didn't have to junk it and can keep running it and that works for me....

_________________
88 Four Winns 200 Horizon
4.3 OMC Cobra-4bbl
2002 Walker Bay 10/2012 Suzuki 2.5
2008 Walker Bay 8

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II