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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:59 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Indiana
Will do.

Thanks for the info about the shower sump being velcro'd down...it didn't seem to be screwed down to me but I've never had it out.

Off-Piste, any pics from your project?

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:08 pm 
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268 Vista

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 am
Posts: 4989
Location: West Michigan
firecadet613 wrote:
Just re-read that thread. That could be my problem.

But with that being said, I want to pull my forward bilge pump and see if any water comes up from those screw holes which hold the base down.

Kind of concerning if that's my issue.....we showered onboard every weekend, and my boat is in cold storage until spring. I suspect there eas some mold or narly growth left in my boat from when we bought it (it sat for two years)

I may have to try and get access to it before it really gets cold out.


Well, if there was any water in the hull when you purchased the boat, it would have shown up on the full hull survey with a moisture meter check that you had done when you bought it in Alabama. And you did have the hull fully surveyed by an independent surveyor, right ??

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista
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Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy
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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Location: Indiana
If there is a secret compartment under my forward bilge pump like the 258s have under their shower sump, and it had water in it....that would show up? I was under the impression that moisture meters only registered water in the hull itself, not any free-standing water in the bilge.

If that's the case then I have nothing to worry about.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Starfish

Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle
Since I installed the access last summer, and sucked it out, it had since refilled. Since it's winterized in drystack, there's no water on board, except pink colored. I'm going down tomorrow and suck it, and cover the anchor access with duct tape and plastic. Thats actually why I'm here, I was inquiring about gel coat damage from duct tape adhesive. I'll take some pictures, and some video (try posting on you tube). Neither of which I've ever done, so we'll see what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:39 pm 
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268 Vista

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 am
Posts: 4989
Location: West Michigan
firecadet613 wrote:
If there is a secret compartment under my forward bilge pump like the 258s have under their shower sump, and it had water in it....that would show up? I was under the impression that moisture meters only registered water in the hull itself, not any free-standing water in the bilge.

If that's the case then I have nothing to worry about.


NOTHING good ever comes of water in the bilge. Inside the boat, even small amounts of water can, over time, create major problems as it will penetrate the layup and, through capillary action and wicking, spread to areas far beyond the immersed depth or section. Many undesirable things happen afterward. Minor blistering is the first; delamination between layers may show up, usually found by visual observation or hammer (percussion) sounding; delamination of FRP layers to various strengthening cores may occur with failure of the structure to carry the loads if the FRP overlay was not strong enough by itself; increased moisture levels of the core materials with wood of any type being particularly vulnerable. These boats have wood all over this area.

This explains it better than I could. If you have had standing water in your boat, for 1, 2 seasons, take heed.
Quote:
As mentioned earlier there are various small voids within the laminate. The water molecules can collect and condense with in these. Within the GRP laminate and the micro-voids are various water soluble components. These are solvents, by products and unreacted constituents from the manufacturing process.

The water within the micro-voids is able to dissolve and chemically react with these components. This process is known as “hydrolysis”. “Hydrolysis” will continue with the voids enlarging, a dissolved solution is formed, the main ingredients being, acetic and hydrochloric acid and glycol. These products give “osmotic fluid” its characteristic vinegary small and greasy texture.

The glycol in particular is “hydroscopic” (water absorbing). Once this is released in the voids it will accelerate the rate of water absorption into the laminate. This process will now continue and will not be reversed by simply taking the boat out of the water. Moisture content will drop slowly if left ashore but will rise again fairly rapidly when immersed again. The various hydrolysed products cannot pass through the polyester gel coat / laminate but the water molecules can.


As this process continues, at some point, the concentration within the voids will become greater than the concentration of the water the vessel is floating in (sea water). At this point the “osmotic” process occurs and more water is drawn in.



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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista
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Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy
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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Indiana
Not sure if its a good thing or bad thing just yet...but on the 268 the forward bilge pump is as low as it can go. There is no void under it like under the shower sump on a 258/278.

Ill have to double check and clean out the shower sump in the spring, although I have a feeling with the amount of water we push through it that's not my issue.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Starfish

Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVL_mxvG8LY Hope this helps, I hope i did it right.


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Indiana
Great thanks!

On my boat I have a bilge pump where your shower sump is. I have not ever had water in that compartment. I haven't had any water come in from the anchor locker either...which makes me wonder if I'd have any below the bilge pump. Guess I'll have to pull the screws from its base and check.

FWIW, my 268 is an '04 and my storage compartments up under the v-berth seats are just gelcoated, no carpeting.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Starfish

Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle
We bought the boat new in February 2006. First time boaters, so there's been a learning curve. It was just a couple years ago when my wife started complaining about the forward compartment being wet. Bailed out the sump until this last summer, when this issue came up.


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Dolphin

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:14 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Bolton, ON Canada
Off-Piste wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVL_mxvG8LY Hope this helps, I hope i did it right.


Nice job on the video Off-Piste. Thanks!

My (new to me) 2006 V278 also had a bad odor in the forward area that I have pretty well determined was caused by water standing in the forward bilge area. When I removed the screws holding the sump pump and vacuumed the screw holes..well, let's just say it didn't smell too pleasant.

What I find a bit frustrating is what would happen to the water located under the pump if you hadn't installed the access plate? It would seem the trapped water has no method of draining. On the 278 the clearance between the finished sump floor and the keel below is low so I'm reluctant to use a hole saw (but accept that I may not have another option).

I really love this boat but this design seems awful (in my humble opinion). Looking at your video I also had the damp carpet in the bow area that would get wet after simply washing my boat. I determined with the help of the fine folks on this site that the anchor locker was a source of water in the bilge. I caulked the inner locker area, ensured the locker drain holes were clear and the carpet has been dry ever since.

Good luck

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'06 V278
8.1 L Volvo
"Heart's Content II"

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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Starfish

Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle
You're very correct. Drilling the hole is stressful, first hole I've drilled in the boat! But I'm also a retired construction guy. I used a cordless Makita, it has 2 speeds. I choose the slower speed (more torque), you can set the clutch on low also. It's hard material. Just be very sensitive (insert sexual term here) to how it's going. When you break through, the piece you're drilling will break loose and enbed itself in the hole saw, time to back off! If you're not familiar with the drill and process, practice on some other material. You'll figure it out after becoming familiar with your tool. Patience grashopper.


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:27 am 
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Seahorse

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:57 am
Posts: 24
kroache wrote:
Off-Piste wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVL_mxvG8LY Hope this helps, I hope i did it right.


Nice job on the video Off-Piste. Thanks!

My (new to me) 2006 V278 also had a bad odor in the forward area that I have pretty well determined was caused by water standing in the forward bilge area. When I removed the screws holding the sump pump and vacuumed the screw holes..well, let's just say it didn't smell too pleasant.

Quote:
What I find a bit frustrating is what would happen to the water located under the pump if you hadn't installed the access plate? It would seem the trapped water has no method of draining. On the 278 the clearance between the finished sump floor and the keel below is low so I'm reluctant to use a hole saw (but accept that I may not have another option).
I really love this boat but this design seems awful (in my humble opinion). Looking at your video I also had the damp carpet in the bow area that would get wet after simply washing my boat. I determined with the help of the fine folks on this site that the anchor locker was a source of water in the bilge. I caulked the inner locker area, ensured the locker drain holes were clear and the carpet has been dry ever since.

Good luck


Kevin,
The compartment under the sump platform drains to the transom and up through limber holes in the engine compartment floor (or that is the way it "designed"). If you don't have limber holes that could be a problem....or if they are clogged...same thing. The idea is that any water that gets to the keel travels to the transom and up through the limber holes and is picked up by the rear bilge. Agreed that this is a modest design at best.

Something else that occured to me.....we have sucked out all the water under the sump but there is still water that has traveled to the transom and is "stuck" under the transom gelcoat platform. If we have no limber holes, where does that water go?

David

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2005 Vista 258
5.7 Gi Volvo DP
Norris Lake, TN


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Indiana
By limber holes, your referring to holes drilled through the bottom of the stringers that the engine mounts to in the engine compartment?

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:35 am 
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Seahorse

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:57 am
Posts: 24
firecadet613 wrote:
By limber holes, your referring to holes drilled through the bottom of the stringers that the engine mounts to in the engine compartment?



When I spoke with FW customer service about this issue they said there should be two limber holes located 10 inches from the center line of the keel to the port and starboard side....1 inch off of the transom wall. There are many limber holes on our boats, but these two are specifically designed to pick up any water that may find it's way to the transom underneath the gelcoat engine compartment floor. In theory, hydrostatic pressure will force any water under the gelcoat engine compartment floor up through the holes and into the rear bilge. I was surprised that the gelcoat floor had a void underneath it (void between the engine floor and the keel).

That being said, we were specifically speaking about my 05 258. Other models may differ. I would suggest speaking with customer service and they may be of more help.

Hope this helps!

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2005 Vista 258
5.7 Gi Volvo DP
Norris Lake, TN


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 Post subject: Re: A/C Condensate drain
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:55 am 
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268 Vista

Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 am
Posts: 4989
Location: West Michigan
Quote:
Limber Holes: Drainage holes in the bilge timbers of a vessel, allowing water to run to a low point for pumping out.


For Fire, since he is a trailer boater, water should naturally drain aft due to the position of the boat on the trailer.
If the limber holes are plugged, yes there could be a problem. If they are not, then any water trapped fore of
the bilge, should drain to the bilge for pumping out as designed. Basically same scenario for the 258, but when
stored "level" in a rack, gravity will not allow the water to flow aft and be pumped out. But as stated, the design
of this on these boats leaves something to be desired.

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One of 4 Previous (Sold) Boats:
2000 Four Winns 268 Vista
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Current Boat: 2004 Chaparral 235 ssi cuddy
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