Buying a used 328

jcbdigger · **Joined:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:49 am **Posts:** 3

New to the forum and not (yet) a Four Winns owner, but seeking some advice/guidance from the assembled experts here. I am looking at purchasing a used Vista 328, I am lucky in that there are currently a few on the market where I am (Queensland, Australia) and so unusually for a used purchase I have some comparative decisions to make! All the boats are c.2004/2005 and are roughly in the same ballpark price wise. Cosmetically they all look pretty good, but there are some differences in options and specs that I need to weigh up.

Firstly, are there any general things I should look out for or that need to be especially aware of when considering one of these models that is around 11/12 years old?

Secondly, one of the boats I am looking at had recently been fitted with new ‘long’ Mercruiser engines (I am not totally sure what the ‘long’ bit means, I think it refers to the main engine block plus a few other engine parts). The alternative boats have about 450 hours on the clock on the original engines. I am weighing up the benefit of the vessel with newer engines versus one with original engines but has a bow thruster fitted. I am fairly keen to have a bow thruster (have had one on all my previous boats) but I am wondering if the newer engines are really the more rational/logical thing to go for. I have only had diesel engines before so the whole petrol engine/legs thing is a bit new to me.

Any advice/input/guidance on either of the above points would be very much appreciated.

weather · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:37 am

New engines are great - but I would want to know why the engines were replaced. If it was due to neglect, likely the rest of the other maintenance was neglected as well.
I would suggest if the general condition of the boats are the same, I would look to see which one has had regular use (as in leaving the dock often). My experience is that an older, low hour boat can mean that lots of things need replacement once you start actively using them - a boat that is used often in will have had wear items already replaced. For instance, we bought our 1999 at the end of 2011 w/267 hours on it. Now with almost 5 summers on it we are pushing 750-800 hours, and have replaced a LOT of wear items.
The 328 is a great boat, perfect size to be able to trailer easily (as in no special permits required or police escort, etc) but is large enough to entertain on and have a family sleep aboard in comfort.

TFD2001 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:44 pm

weather wrote:

....perfect size to be able to trailer easily (as in no special permits required or police escort, etc)...

While I agree that she's a good size boat, and can be trailered fairly easily, legally, it does require permits to move on the highways (in the US anyway), and in some states and situations, such as two lane roads in West Virginia, does require a pilot car (legally speaking)...

When I was there, I just took my chances for the 10 miles I was on a 2 lane in West Virginia... :mrgreen:

rpengr · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:44 pm

In the USA, a "Long Block" includes the main engine block and the heads (including valves, pistons, cam, lifters, etc), but does not include the Intake or Exhaust Manifolds, fuel injection, alternator, power steering, or other external accessories.

A rebuilt engine is only as good as the rebuilder. I would not consider that to be an upgrade over the 11 year old original engine with 450 hours, unless you know a lot about who did the work. (and as mentioned, why did it need it in the first place).

One of the more common problems on Vista's (or similar cruisers) that can cause an engine failure is to be "over propped". That is to have too much prop pitch requiring too much torque at low rpm during extended cruising. This can cause "tulipped valves" from too much valve heat.

acguy · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:05 pm

Great boats no complaints. In my opinion when of the best laid out express cruisers for her time.
I have 700 hrs on my 5.7 gxi volvos.
Just recently went on vacation for 10 days, 2 adults and kids onboard we all had lots of room to survive

jcbdigger · **Joined:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:49 am **Posts:** 3

Thanks for the input guys.

I have spoken to the mechanic who replaced the engines and apparently the story is that another contractor botched the riser replacement, this, along with extra equipment fitted to the back of the vessel causing it to sit a little lower in the water, caused salt water to get inside the engines and then engine replacement. Apparently he fitted the new engines with a modified exhaust system to ensure no future water ingress. This guy has a good reputation locally, but I guess I could only verify all this with a full inspection.

So, still trying to choose between 450 hours on the engines with bow thruster v new engines and no bow thruster. I guess it may come down to price in the end.

Traliering is not on the agenda as it will live on our pontoon, but that does mean it will be in the water all the time.

weather · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:33 pm

TFD2001 wrote:

weather wrote:

....perfect size to be able to trailer easily (as in no special permits required or police escort, etc)...

While I agree that she's a good size boat, and can be trailered fairly easily, legally, it does require permits to move on the highways (in the US anyway), and in some states and situations, such as two lane roads in West Virginia, does require a pilot car (legally speaking)...

When I was there, I just took my chances for the 10 miles I was on a 2 lane in West Virginia... :mrgreen:

I should have explained further - I don't trailer it myself, I hire a trucking company to do it and they have a standing permit that allows them to trailer loads up to 13' wide anytime they want. So I don't have to wait for special permits or anything like that.

rpengr · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:46 am

jcbdigger wrote:

So, still trying to choose between 450 hours on the engines with bow thruster v new engines and no bow thruster. I guess it may come down to price in the end.

If these are truly "New" engines from Mercruiser, then that is a great upgrade. But more likely, they are rebuilt engines from an aftermarket company. I would not really consider that to be much of an upgrade at all. I would rather have the bow thruster.

Decision · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:34 pm

I would agree with rpengr's engine statement above and would weigh where those rebuilt engines came from in addition to who did the engine installations and what (if anything) was addressed during that engine installation. Not sure if you know where the three 328's you are considering came from, but I'd give added bonus points for one that could show regular oil changes (engines, drives, generator), as well as showing replacement of the normal wear items (spark plugs, wires, cap and rotor, water impellers, etc.) The replacement engine might still show records of what was done prior to engine replacement?

How are the camper tops, any fading/damage of the gel coat and does everything work on all three 328's? As you know, generators, air conditioners, windlass, even battery charges and fridges can be pricey to replace. Generator's are more common than not on a 328, so you could expect a little better resale for a 328 that has one vs not. Some will say they don't need a generator for the boating they do, but a lot will say they want a generator on a boat the size of a 328.

In my search for a 328, I came across one 328 that looked like new, but had documented excessive engine oil burning issues, luckily I found that right in the owners maintenance records from the marina. Another 328 I know of (through a friend) had an issue with wet stringers (a deal killer for them). The 328's have a solid hull below the waterline, but cored above water line. I guess what I'm saying here, is a good marine survey is money well spent in my opinion.

We continue to very much enjoy our 328 and would have no reservations in recommending a 328 to anyone else, should the 328 be in the size, price and style of boat that one is looking for and passes a comprehensive hull/mechanical survey.

Good luck,
Mike.

Cap'n Morgan · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:00 pm

328's can be great boats, but the survey will tell a lot. Read through this post by a fellow Aussie from 2009...
Hello All

Quote:

Hello All

I am an Australian owner of 2004 Vista 328.

I have experienced significant hull decay from the engine room bulk head back down the centre line stringer and eventually into the transom.

A leak in the starboard side sterndrive "area" was the first symptom of this "cancer".

Has anyone else suffered similar problems ???

The damage seems to have begun at the join between the floor, starboard stringer and the engine room bulk head. With freshwater ingression from water below the automatic float bilge system trigger point. This is apparent due to the lay up of glass malting to the sub state which in no way made the proof seal, allowing the internal structure of the vessel to absorb water.

Four Winns don't seem to have any interest in my vessel's problem so I was interested if anyone else has had similar problems.

For those that haven't , (noticed problems), can I suggest getting a moisture test done on the stringers, transom and engine room bulk head immediately. As in my case he only trigger to find this was a leak from the starboard side sterndrive "area" - if I had gone out in heavy seas that day it would have sunk !!

Cheers
Brett Smith.

Here is the entire thread.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3881

deafwish · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:26 pm

G'day JCB (you're an excavator?!),

Are you aware of the extensive maintenance of a dual outdrive boat in salt water?!
I was looking at a few twin engined options down here in Melbourne & ended up buying the Mustang 2800 with single EFI Mercruiser 5.7.
It came with an 8 month old Mercuiser Re-manufactured Long Block, which sealed the deal.
I dry stack mine because of the associated costs of keeping it in the water.
FYI - I wouldn't hesitate leaving a shaft driven boat in the water...

jcbdigger · **Joined:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:49 am **Posts:** 3

Hi everybody, many thanks for all the posts and input, much appreciated. Thanks especially to Cap'n Morgan for the link to the sorry tale of the 328 with the hull decay, let’s hope that was a one off. I wonder what happened in the end, the tread ends with no real conclusion. I will though bring it to the attention of my surveyor – that’s if I ever actually choose a boat!

So here is the latest dilemma. Having done some due diligence on the ‘new’ engines that are the main selling point of one of these boats, it appears that the new long engines that were fitted were not supplied by Mercruiser but by a local automotive engine supplier who specialises in bringing in car engines from the USA. So the engines are in fact Chevy blocks and not genuine Mercruiser!

Opinion appears to be divided on if this is a problem or not. Certainly the Mercruiser Mag 350s are based on the Chevy blocks, but to me that does not make it a marine engine, even if it has been properly installed. You could argue that are they no longer really Mercury engines? Trawling through various forums seems to indicate that while the Chevy blocks can be used, there are still significant differences in things like the camshaft and other components between the marine and automobile versions, one person who is apparently ‘in the know’ indicated that the marine blocks are manufactured to much tighter tolerances. Overall my reading is the that the Chevy blocks are possibly OK as short term replacements but they are unlikely to have the same life expectancy as the proper marine version Mercruisers. My guess is that the current owners have implemented the lowest cost viable replacement and have then put the vessel on the market, you kind of can’t blame them for taking the lowest cost solution, but not sure I want to buy into the longer term ownership after that.

So my question is this, does anybody here know if this is a real issue or not? Are the Chevy long blocks an acceptable replacement, is this a real issue or is my concern misplaced? Right now it does not look and feel right and my instinct is to run away towards the alternative vessel.

Thalasso · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:45 pm **Posts:** 333

Biggest diff is
Marine engines use diff type of gaskets.Brass casting plugs (freeze plugs). Diff cams. Car engines don't run at the high RPM's as boats. You don't see any cars running at 4500 rpm's and up

Cap'n Morgan · **Posted:** Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:55 am

I'm with you 100% on the "if it does not feel right" then a long walk is in order. It may never be an issue, but as long as you own it, you
will have that thought in the back of your mind that the engines are not as they were originally installed.

Several years ago, we were shopping for a 328, and a friend was as well. Both of us had seen 2 or 3 328's with water intrusion/rot issues.
Some years had issue with the way the swim platform was mounted, water gets in and reeks havoc with the transom area of the hull.
Not all were made that way, but due diligence from your surveyor will easily detect an issue if it is present.

rpengr · **Posted:** Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:40 pm

jcbdigger wrote:

So here is the latest dilemma. Having done some due diligence on the ‘new’ engines that are the main selling point of one of these boats, it appears that the new long engines that were fitted were not supplied by Mercruiser but by a local automotive engine supplier who specialises in bringing in car engines from the USA. So the engines are in fact Chevy blocks and not genuine Mercruiser!

Opinion appears to be divided on if this is a problem or not. Certainly the Mercruiser Mag 350s are based on the Chevy blocks, but to me that does not make it a marine engine, even if it has been properly installed. You could argue that are they no longer really Mercury engines? Trawling through various forums seems to indicate that while the Chevy blocks can be used, there are still significant differences in things like the camshaft and other components between the marine and automobile versions, one person who is apparently ‘in the know’ indicated that the marine blocks are manufactured to much tighter tolerances. Overall my reading is the that the Chevy blocks are possibly OK as short term replacements but they are unlikely to have the same life expectancy as the proper marine version Mercruisers. My guess is that the current owners have implemented the lowest cost viable replacement and have then put the vessel on the market, you kind of can’t blame them for taking the lowest cost solution, but not sure I want to buy into the longer term ownership after that.

So my question is this, does anybody here know if this is a real issue or not? Are the Chevy long blocks an acceptable replacement, is this a real issue or is my concern misplaced? Right now it does not look and feel right and my instinct is to run away towards the alternative vessel.

Mercruiser 350s and Volvo Penta 5.7s are both made from Chevy Long Blocks supplied by General Motors (GM). My understanding is the only differences in the marine long block are the Camshaft (which is different for each HP rating), the brass freeze plugs (not steel), roller lifters on some models and roller rockers on some models? (I'm not sure there). The thermostat housing is different, the circulating water pump must be marine rated (SST or brass impeller). The oil pan may be larger (if part of the long block)

External items are supplied by Mercruiser or VP and are different from automotive: Intake Manifold / Carb or Fuel Injection + Fuel Pump(s), Spark Arrestor (instead of intake air filter), Exhaust manifolds, Marine Starter, Marine Alternator, Marine Distributor, Raw Water Pump, Engine coupler, Engine mounts, a nice matching paint job, and a pretty plastic cover over the intake area.

So I don't call the Chevy block a downgrade or a temporary solution. However, your post still doesn't answer weather these are "New" long blocks from GM, or if they are rebuilt by an aftermarket company. Most likely they are rebuilt.

I would consider these "newer" engines to be more of a neutral factor, but as mentioned earlier, not necessarily an upgrade, unless they were Factory New long Blocks from General Motors.

Ray

www.iFourWinns.com

Buying a used 328

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