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 Post subject: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:14 am 
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Minnow

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:16 am
Posts: 18
I asked this question on the FourWinns Facebook group but didn't get enough answers to get a lot of perspective on my issue...

We put the boat in last Sunday. The bilge was bone dry. It had been raining for about 3 days prior to that. I put the brass plug in myself. A bit of Teflon tape, hand tight plus a third of a turn with a wrench.

As soon as we put boat in water, about an inch of water in the read bilge. Not enough to even reach the bottom of the bilge pump. Figured it was rain water from everywhere in the boat making its way to the bottom with moving the boat around prior to putting in in the water.

The next day I went to empty the bilge with my shop vac to notice that as soon as it was dry, water would trickle in from the plug. It would trickle in at a good rate, to refill the bilge with 1-2 inches of water. Just enough to cover the plug hole. The water then stops trickling in. I've emptied the bilge 4-5 times with my shop vac, and I've taken out so much water, I doubt it would be water trapped inside the boat. I am now ready to theorize it's water coming from the outside through the plug.

I'm a little lost... If water was indeed coming in from the plug which is either not sealed properly, or the plug isn't screwed in enough, why would it stop coming in after only about 2 inches?

Since I don't really know what is causing this, I'm not taking a chance, getting the boat pulled out of water, getting the whole drain plug assembly replaced and re-sealed.

I can only hope this will solve the issue.

From what I understand, the bilge should be bone dry, save for some water ingressing the boat once in a while with rain and splash etc. I don'T think there should be a permanent inch or two of water at the bottom of the bilge...

Thoughts are appreciated and welcome...

Thanks

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2007 Four Winns Vista 358


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Indiana
JFB wrote:
I asked this question on the FourWinns Facebook group but didn't get enough answers to get a lot of perspective on my issue...

We put the boat in last Sunday. The bilge was bone dry. It had been raining for about 3 days prior to that. I put the brass plug in myself. A bit of Teflon tape, hand tight plus a third of a turn with a wrench.

As soon as we put boat in water, about an inch of water in the read bilge. Not enough to even reach the bottom of the bilge pump. Figured it was rain water from everywhere in the boat making its way to the bottom with moving the boat around prior to putting in in the water.

The next day I went to empty the bilge with my shop vac to notice that as soon as it was dry, water would trickle in from the plug. It would trickle in at a good rate, to refill the bilge with 1-2 inches of water. Just enough to cover the plug hole. The water then stops trickling in. I've emptied the bilge 4-5 times with my shop vac, and I've taken out so much water, I doubt it would be water trapped inside the boat. I am now ready to theorize it's water coming from the outside through the plug.

I'm a little lost... If water was indeed coming in from the plug which is either not sealed properly, or the plug isn't screwed in enough, why would it stop coming in after only about 2 inches?

Since I don't really know what is causing this, I'm not taking a chance, getting the boat pulled out of water, getting the whole drain plug assembly replaced and re-sealed.

I can only hope this will solve the issue.

From what I understand, the bilge should be bone dry, save for some water ingressing the boat once in a while with rain and splash etc. I don'T think there should be a permanent inch or two of water at the bottom of the bilge...

Thoughts are appreciated and welcome...

Thanks


I answered on the FB page but will go with a different angle on here. Again as I said on FB, if you've never removed and rebedded the drain plug assembly - that is a very likely source. Most builders do not use a TON of sealant on anything. FWIW, I've never used teflon tape on my brass drain plugs and have never had them leak (6 boats over 20 years). That type of connection does not need teflon tape, just screw the brass drain plug in. As you saw on the Facebook page, many feel bilge water is normal. Personally, I like a bone dry bilge and have been able to do that on every boat I've owned.

If the drain plug isn't the source and you've ruled out your fresh water system (the plumbing goes many places you can't see - for example the shower), then it is most like water has gotten in between the hull and the hull liner (what you see when you look in the bilge).

The 318/338/358 are all built the same - with an outer hull and an inner liner. If water gets between the two, it can take a LONG time to get it out. I believe I've covered the inner/outer hull and how the boats were designed/built in a post you had last fall.

Somehow, somewhere, you have water ingressing in between the two hulls and it's appearing at the drain plug when the boats in the water. Not uncommon, but you need to find the source which will in turn solve the problem.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:18 am 
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Minnow

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:16 am
Posts: 18
Thank you for answering once again. I know I'll eventually get to the bottom of this, it's only a matter of time.

Water in between the hulls would explain, IMHO, why water comes in, for about an inch or so, then stops coming in. It seems to me, with my engineer brain, that if water was coming through the drain plug because it is not seated properly, water would keep coming in until the level inside the boat would equal the level outside the boat.

As I've indicated, I've emptied at least 10 gallons worth, maybe more, through my shop vac. I wouldn't expect there to be that much water in between hulls, but I do not know as I have no idea how much space there is in there. I know there is/was water in there last year as I sucked out a bunch out of a screw hole in the forward bilge last fall.

When you say it can take "a long time" to empty the water in between the hulls, what do you mean? Do you mean I need to shop vac many, many times? Or do you mean it takes a lot of time for all the water to make it out of the hull to the bilge, meaning I'll be using my shop vac all summer?

Today, even though the water is at 50F, a diver is going in to re-torque my drain plug. According to the marina owner, using teflon tape is mistake number one, as it prevents a good seal. Mistake number two is the fact that with teflon, you need more than a quarter turn to tighten the plug as it is not seated as well as without teflon tape.

We'll find out soon enough. If we re-torque and water still comes in, we're pulling the boat out. Once it's out, I'm getting all the water access points re-sealed and replacing the drain plug assembly. Then, when it goes back in the water, if the same situation occurs (let's hope not), then I would assume it can only be water in between hulls, in which case, I'll shop vac every day until it's dry.

Thank you for the guidance, it really does help give me a lot of perspective. 8)

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2007 Four Winns Vista 358


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Indiana
JFB wrote:
Thank you for answering once again. I know I'll eventually get to the bottom of this, it's only a matter of time.

Water in between the hulls would explain, IMHO, why water comes in, for about an inch or so, then stops coming in. It seems to me, with my engineer brain, that if water was coming through the drain plug because it is not seated properly, water would keep coming in until the level inside the boat would equal the level outside the boat.

As I've indicated, I've emptied at least 10 gallons worth, maybe more, through my shop vac. I wouldn't expect there to be that much water in between hulls, but I do not know as I have no idea how much space there is in there. I know there is/was water in there last year as I sucked out a bunch out of a screw hole in the forward bilge last fall.

When you say it can take "a long time" to empty the water in between the hulls, what do you mean? Do you mean I need to shop vac many, many times? Or do you mean it takes a lot of time for all the water to make it out of the hull to the bilge, meaning I'll be using my shop vac all summer?

Today, even though the water is at 50F, a diver is going in to re-torque my drain plug. According to the marina owner, using teflon tape is mistake number one, as it prevents a good seal. Mistake number two is the fact that with teflon, you need more than a quarter turn to tighten the plug as it is not seated as well as without teflon tape.

We'll find out soon enough. If we re-torque and water still comes in, we're pulling the boat out. Once it's out, I'm getting all the water access points re-sealed and replacing the drain plug assembly. Then, when it goes back in the water, if the same situation occurs (let's hope not), then I would assume it can only be water in between hulls, in which case, I'll shop vac every day until it's dry.

Thank you for the guidance, it really does help give me a lot of perspective. 8)


My pleasure. After owning a few of these, I have learned many of their quirks! Honestly, that's why we went with a 358 after the 318 vs different brand (didn't really want to learn the ins and outs of Regal, etc). I agree with your thoughts on the drain plug, however I will caution you to avoid letting them crank on it. It's held to the boat with three philips head screws and if they tighten it too much, they will cause the housing to move, breaking the sealants seal.

No idea on the amount of water you'd get between the hulls. I had an issue on the 358 with my shower sump getting an air lock and thus overflowing. Due to a cracked caulk seal where the waste hoses go from the tank to the engine room, overflow shower sump water made it down between the two hulls. It took forever to shop vac it all out (barely a stream would come up), as I could only put the shop vac where that caulk was broken, but I'd say I got 2-3 gallons at most, over 20-30 minutes until no more water came up. My comment was that since you can't stick the shop vac hose into the water directly, it takes some time for it to get sucked up, not necessarily that you'd be doing it all summer, unless the source of the water wasn't corrected. Trust me, I know how frustrating this is. It took too long to figure out my shower sump was air locking (after they sent me a new one under warranty due to a design issue causing the new one I purchased to airlock from day one!).

If I read that right, you've shop vac'd out 10 gallons, from the main engine room bilge? Do you have stern drives? IIRC, the engine room floor on that boat should be just the liner with the only holes through it being for the depth sounder? On my shaft drives, the liner stops where the shafts come through the boat. That area still appears to be sealed well.

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:07 pm 
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Minnow

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:16 am
Posts: 18
The diver went in, turned the plug 2 turns, and it seated completely.

Water was still coming in, but slower, and less accumulated. Small victory. The diver remarked that whomever did the sealing job on the housing did a crappy job and used silicone instead of SikaFlex...

I put in a compression plug on the inside, shop vac'd all the water out of the bilge and now it's bone dry. We'll see tomorrow, but no water was ingressing through the hole so I'm not too worried.

Now I'm left wondering how long the boat has been this way, and how much water/humidity has filled the in between hull cavities. There is wood between the two fiberglass hulls. I wonder about its condition.

My plan is to wait until the fall, when we pull the boat for winter and install a new drain plug assembly and seal it properly. Can I allow the boat to go through another season (this season) like this? I'm torn...

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2007 Four Winns Vista 358


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:38 pm 
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Location: Indiana
JFB wrote:
The diver went in, turned the plug 2 turns, and it seated completely.

Water was still coming in, but slower, and less accumulated. Small victory. The diver remarked that whomever did the sealing job on the housing did a crappy job and used silicone instead of SikaFlex...

I put in a compression plug on the inside, shop vac'd all the water out of the bilge and now it's bone dry. We'll see tomorrow, but no water was ingressing through the hole so I'm not too worried.

Now I'm left wondering how long the boat has been this way, and how much water/humidity has filled the in between hull cavities. There is wood between the two fiberglass hulls. I wonder about its condition.

My plan is to wait until the fall, when we pull the boat for winter and install a new drain plug assembly and seal it properly. Can I allow the boat to go through another season (this season) like this? I'm torn...


Sounds like a previous owner sealed it up improperly. FWs most likely uses SikaFlex, I prefer LifeCalk.

There is not wood between the two fiberglass hulls. There is dead space between the "hull" and the "inner liner". Now, the transom is constructed with a balsa core, as are most boats. The engine hatch, hull sides, transom, swim platform and foredeck are all constructed with the balsa core construction method. Gelcoat-fiberglass-balsa coring-fiberglass is how it is made. If the balsa coring gets wet, pray that hasn't been wet for long or it will cause rot.

When you do the repair, as I detailed on Facebook, let it dry completely, coat the coring with epoxy and let it cure. Then reinstall the drain plug with the appropriate sealant. When I pulled mine off in the fall, the wood around it was damp, but it was not balsa -thankfully!

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:56 am 
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Minnow

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:16 am
Posts: 18
Excellent suggestion for the epoxy.

Are you suggesting the inside of the the drain has balsa exposed? I would expect this area of the bilge to be wet pretty often, therefore I wouldn't think it would be built with the core exposed. I realize over time, that could become the case, but initially it shouldn't be right? The inside of the drain should be all fiberglass in order to protect the core.

When I pull the boat out in September, I will remove the housing and replace with a new one. I will seal it VERY well!! I will use epoxy to cover the inside of the hole from the outside of the boat to the inside of the boat prior to inserting the new drain plug assembly. I wonder how deep that hole is. Judging from the drain plug which I can't see from the inside, it must be an inch or more.

Is there a special marine/wet epoxy I should use? Or any epoxy will do? I have some home 5 minute epoxy which I used to redo the cabin door latch holes recently and it seemed to work well. Mind you, this area won't be wet constantly so maybe a special marine epoxy is in order.

Thanks again for the help. I have been losing a lot of sleep recently over this water ingress thing. I'm happy it's moving in the right direction.

Now I have discovered my AC water pump is dripping slowly from one of its fittings... I will try and fix it, or replace. You wouldn't happen to know the specs on those pumps? 250,500,750 GPH? If you have a brand suggestion, I'll take it! Thanks!

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2007 Four Winns Vista 358


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 Post subject: Re: 358 Rear bilge water
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Indiana
JFB wrote:
Excellent suggestion for the epoxy.

Are you suggesting the inside of the the drain has balsa exposed? I would expect this area of the bilge to be wet pretty often, therefore I wouldn't think it would be built with the core exposed. I realize over time, that could become the case, but initially it shouldn't be right? The inside of the drain should be all fiberglass in order to protect the core.

When I pull the boat out in September, I will remove the housing and replace with a new one. I will seal it VERY well!! I will use epoxy to cover the inside of the hole from the outside of the boat to the inside of the boat prior to inserting the new drain plug assembly. I wonder how deep that hole is. Judging from the drain plug which I can't see from the inside, it must be an inch or more.

Is there a special marine/wet epoxy I should use? Or any epoxy will do? I have some home 5 minute epoxy which I used to redo the cabin door latch holes recently and it seemed to work well. Mind you, this area won't be wet constantly so maybe a special marine epoxy is in order.

Thanks again for the help. I have been losing a lot of sleep recently over this water ingress thing. I'm happy it's moving in the right direction.

Now I have discovered my AC water pump is dripping slowly from one of its fittings... I will try and fix it, or replace. You wouldn't happen to know the specs on those pumps? 250,500,750 GPH? If you have a brand suggestion, I'll take it! Thanks!


The transom is balsa cored, as are the other areas I spoke of in my reply. The majority of boat builders use balsa. As I said, I don't believe it's balsa around the drain plug as it wasn't soaking wet, as balsa typically would be...see the picture below of mine. You can clearly see the wood and it's easily 2-3" deep.

Epoxy I use is either West Systems 105 with 205 or 206 (depending on the temp I'm using it at) or West Systems Six10 (which is a thickened epoxy in a caulk gun tube and won't drip).

Image

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2007 358 T-5.7GXi IB
Previous Boats
'08 H240, '08 V318, '04 268, '04 225


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