www.iFourWinns.com
https://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/

Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
https://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9108		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  weather [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
I need to replace my windlass and ultimately if I leave the battery where it is I'm going to need to run new 2 or 4 AWG wire from the engine compartment forward to the windlass. Which brings me to my question.
In a 328 design, is there any extra space where the fresh water tank is stored, under the forward berth? Mine has no drawers or anything there so I'm wondering if there might be some room in there. I can access it (but never have) from under the mattress, by unscrewing a panel there. If there was space, perhaps I can put a battery in there (with a vent added to the front)? Would that be safe, considering the gas produced during charging?

If anyone has pictures of the area in there, that would be ideal.

Thanks,
Steve.
Author:  aguyindallas [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
If you put a battery up front, you have to run wires. Due to fumes, its potentially a dangerous idea.

If you put in a new windlass, you have to run wires.

My suggestion would be to run new wires to the windlass and be done with the project. Its the easiest, already engineered and guaranteed, safe way to go.
Author:  weather [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
aguyindallas wrote:
If you put a battery up front, you have to run wires.

In my case I can use the old windlass wires (8AWG) for the battery bank charging wires so I wouldn't need to make a new run the length of the boat.

Quote:
Due to fumes, its potentially a dangerous idea.

This is where my concern lies. I know many people have batteries in the living space of the boat, think sailboat with them under the floor, or under a bench. I just don't understand what the risks are, and/or the correct way to install / vent them (if there is one). So more comments on this aspect would be appreciated.

Quote:
If you put in a new windlass, you have to run wires.

True, but only for a few feet. The shorter run will also allow me to run a smaller gauge and will potentially save hundreds in cable (however this is not my motivation).

Quote:
My suggestion would be to run new wires to the windlass and be done with the project. Its the easiest, already engineered and guaranteed, safe way to go.

Agreed that it's the known route. Not sure about easiest - running 2 or 4 AWG cable from stern to bow of my boat, while taking apart many components of the interior to do so...doesn't sound easy to me.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
So your existing wire from the previous windlass is unsueable I take it ? What happened to it ?
Author:  weather [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Cap'n Morgan wrote:
So your existing wire from the previous windlass is unsueable I take it ? What happened to it ?


They are usable, nothing wrong with them. The issue I have is that the original Lewmar Concept 0 windlass was only supplied with 8AWG cables by FW. Lewmar called for at least 5AWG cabling with this windlass so FW installed too small a cable. This causes issues with voltage drop over the length of the wire under load. As I understand it, this causes issues with the motor.
Now consider that the Concept 0 was really underpowered for this size of boat (as told to me by Lewmar). The result is I will need to buy a new properly sized windlass, which draws more current, increases voltage drop across already too small cables. I'm looking to install a Lewmar V1, which is by no means an overpowered windlass, but with a 700W motor, it requires 4AWG cable to operate correctly.
I have looked hard to try to find a windlass that will successfully work on my boat, with the 8AWG wires - but this seams impossible. So...if i wish to correctly install my new correctly sized windlass, those 8AWG wires will need to be replaced with something larger, most likely 4AWG. The closer I can move the battery to the windlass, the reduced amount of large cable running I need to do.

Hope that rambling made sense. :shock:
Author:  Paul I. [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
As I have said, FW undersizes there wires! Thats great, you understand the need for bigger wires. Lawmar has a good chart for this. You could go with AGM battery vs a wet cell. Venting would not be needed then. Gases from a wet cell when charging, hydrogen, can explode.

YES, you are right as to the sailboaters!! But, from what I have seen, the compartments were vented. They use far bigger battery's then us & the charge rate % wise is smaller due to the size of there batteries.

"Hope that rambling made sense" You are not rambling, you are making sense!

As I see it, you can do one of two things. The 8AWG wire is already there, just double it up. In other words, way not use it. Just run another set of 8AWG wire & save the money. OR Remove the 8AWG and replace it with the 4AWG.

A third thing that you could do! (just thought of it) Remove the 8AWG, install the 4. Use the 8AWG to go back the the engine compartment, using a battery combiner to charge the windlass battery when needed.
Author:  aguyindallas [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
If its worth doing, its worth doing right.

I know its a lot of work to take that amount of "stuff" apart and put it back together. At the end of the day, are you going to be happier knowing its 10000% done properly, or is it something you will be happy knowing you may have takena short cut of sorts?

Safety has to be priority #1...and the safest way is fresh wire, the whole run.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Makes sense to me. Except the "sales speak" that the windlass was too small for a 328. I would buy a windlass that accepts the 8AWG wire, modify the deck as required to install, and go boating. Personally I would not consider the alternate location battery installation. That is not where a battery belongs, nor is the 328 designed to have one located there. But that is just my opinion, FWIW.
Sorry for the diversion and not answering your question.
Author:  Paul I. [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Something else.

No mater how you do it. Use marine wire, it is tinned. I am willing to bet, that the wire FW used, is not tinned!! Which I don't understand! Look at the 8AWG for corrosion. As to the windlass, no matter what brand you use, I doubt if you will find one for you boat that uses 8AWG, UNLESS the battery is within 8 to 10 feet of the windlass.
Author:  ric [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Don't use AGM batteries in a sealed compartment thinking it's safe cause the batteries are sealed. I replace swollen and split open AGM batteries all the time in battery backup units.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Paul I. wrote:
Something else.

As to the windlass, no matter what brand you use, I doubt if you will find one for you boat that uses 8AWG, UNLESS the battery is within 8 to 10 feet of the windlass.


The Lewmar V700 uses 8AWG wire, and comes with a contactor.
Cable Sizes V700 12V
0-23 ft 8 AWG
23-50 ft 8 AWG
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... ?pid=15275
Author:  Paul I. [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
Cap'n Morgan wrote:
Paul I. wrote:
Something else.

As to the windlass, no matter what brand you use, I doubt if you will find one for you boat that uses 8AWG, UNLESS the battery is within 8 to 10 feet of the windlass.


The Lewmar V700 uses 8AWG wire, and comes with a contactor.
Cable Sizes V700 12V
0-23 ft 8 AWG
23-50 ft 8 AWG
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... ?pid=15275


You have not read the owners manual than. http://www.lewmar.com/assets/img/datase ... 22iss2.pdf

There stating, any run in both directions over 34ft, to use 6AWG. So your battery needs to be within 12 to 13 feet of the windlass. A total of 26 to 28 feet of cable. Which is giving you a good safety margin! Slack and turns need to be factored in.

On a 32ft. boat, if the battery is in the engine compartment. You are going to use 50 to 60 feet of cable, which means 25 to 30ft of wire from piont to piont.
Author:  Paul I. [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
ric wrote:
Don't use AGM batteries in a sealed compartment thinking it's safe cause the batteries are sealed. I replace swollen and split open AGM batteries all the time in battery backup units.


Yes Rick you are right! I did some digging, from Oddessy's web site. But there not as bad as a wet cell when charging.

"But a common misconception is that these batteries do not out gas, that is, give off hydrogen gas while charging. So people install them in places that aren’t ventilated. This is a mistake. Under normal charging
conditions they will not out gas, but they do have a small valve in the top of each cell that, if the battery overheats while charging, will open and release hydrogen."
Author:  weather [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
No fault to Cap'n - the Lewmar "Marine Equipment Guide", which I have a printed copy of, incorrectly states 8AWG wire for both distances. I'm sure they have it incorrect in other places as well.

The manual does state a range of 8/6/4 gauge depending on total run length. I'm guessing my total run length to be at least 60' (30' there, 30' return). If I use the existing 8AWG wire with the V700 I will see a little less than 14% voltage drop just from the resistance of the wire. The V700 manual asks for 4AWG past 60' of run.
I would also love to be able to just buy a Concept 0, or other windlass that matches the hole pattern I have in my deck. The reality is that I will need to do FG filling and then cutting no matter what windlass I get, since the Concept 0 is no longer available.

I would also argue that a 35' boat is on the very outside limits (likely overstated by Lewmar) of the V700. It would likely be fine, if I always did everything correct, like never use it to pull the anchor out of the sand - but I'm just not that reliable. :lol:

With a motor that depends on high current to do it's work, I do believe correct wire size is important. I'm not a fan of the 'use 2 wires to get the same area of wire'. For instance an 8AWG and a 6AWG match the cross sectional area of a 4AWG wire. If I need to pull a new wire, might as well pull the correct one.

I don't want any safety issues with batteries - my family is on this boat and there is no excuse for creating an unsafe environment. That said - I'd still like to understand why most sailboats keep their batteries in the cabin in an apparently safe fashion.

I do believe that ultimately I will be tearing my boat apart and running 4AWG wire from front to back - I just like to research the alternatives.
Author:  Cap'n Morgan [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vista 328 - Extra Space Under the Forward Berth?
And I'm not gonna read no dern manual just to satisfy some chowd. A neighbor in our marina put a V700 on his 2004 328 Vista last summer. He used the existing 8AWG wires. I was there when he did the install. It took less than 2 hours. It works just fine for his 328. Right, Wrong or something in between, the point is I have seen it done, and it does work for what he needs. That is all.

I understand where you are coming from weather. It never hurts to insure you have plenty of voltage for all occasions to run your windlass. Good luck with your install.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/