Looking for the loss - fine tuning the 190 for more....

meinmelb · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:30 am

Hi Guys

As some of you are aware I am not all that happy with my boats performance. I expected it to be a little more SUV than Ferrari, but found it to me more geriatric / pedestrian. ie: If there is no cause and this is the best it can do, then I need to sell it and find something else. I know I could just change the prop but want to find out the real cause of any differences in performance.
Handling is also positively dangerous and I would not let anyone drive this boat as it will flip over, I know I nearly sank it a few weeks ago.

However if my research is correct I should be able to realise my performance expectations from this boat/motor so I have been fine tuning and looking for possible causes. So I though I would log my findings and ask for your opinion as I go along.
1: I have checked the timing, and ensured a full service of all fluids and filters.
2: Spark Plug leads are new, Spark plugs are Platinum PZTR5A-15. ( See Below)
3: Exhaust flappers are intact and fine.
4: Hydrofoil attached. ( see below)
5: Prop is Merc Mirage 21p 14 3/4 inch ( See below)

Tested on water. WOT = 4100, speed about 42mph. 2 people. Four Winns published figures: WOT 4400-4800, 50mph

Now for what I have done recently to find our why the difference:
1: Fuel had half a tank of 6 month old fuel, mixed with half a tank of fresh fuel. Now drained and ready for new/fresh fuel.
2: Mercury Quickleen 2 fuel system cleaner at the ready for the new fuel to help clean out any possible residue.
3: Hydrofoil as been removed to hopefully improve handling.
4: Spark Plug gaps were 1.4mm, not 1.1mm as per manual. Re gapped to 1.1mm
5: Prop is 14 3/4 inch diameter. Spec calls for 14 1/4 diameter. Might loan a correct spec prop to test.
6: Checked hull with straight edge for hook etc and it looks fine.

I am hoping the removal of the Hydrofoil will improve handling, and that the spark plug gaps, and the new fuel will help the motor. The extra 1/2 inch diameter on the prop may also help.
Once I have tested the boat again I will log the changes, and then if I am happy I will start to look for a High Five prop

Any opinions on the above? anything else I should be looking at?

deafwish · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:08 am

Hey Mark,

What is your engine/ out drive combo?
Have you performed a compression test?
Serial number might assist, too...

meinmelb · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:47 am

deafwish wrote:

Hey Mark,

What is your engine/ out drive combo?
Have you performed a compression test?
Serial number might assist, too...

2004 Merc 4.3 MPI with Alpha 1 drive. Engine serial number OM6889xx
Compression test done and all within 10% of each other, about 85-90 psi average (not super accurate). I doubt it is a dodgy cylinder as it seems to run ok at lower RPM. It is smooth and acceleration is linear with no misfire or stutter... just seems under powered for 220hp... and not close to published spec's.

Don't get me wrong it is not that bad that I think there is a major fault, which is why the title is "fine tuning", it's just that there seems to be something missing. There is no zing.. Bit like when you taste your favourite meal and there is just something not quite right.... A touch of salt / spice and it brings it to life...... :roll:

Fuel consumption is also very good but then I am used to using 130l (34 gallons) a day so anything looks good after that. Now use about 20lt (6 gallons) per hour over the day. :lol:

LouC · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:02 am

I would take another compression test; with the engine warmed up and throttle wide open. Those readings are low, even in an older engine you should see over 100 psi and the lowest within 75% of the highest. My old '88 4.3 has 165-175 psi hot.

Walt · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:05 am

I also don't see what size boat you have, or anything about WOT speed/RPM. Your fuel consumption isn't too bad. I average 7gph with a 6.2L.

150 is about what I would expect for compression. Before you run the next test, run the motor at about 1000-1500 RPM and spray small amounts of water into the intake (I use an old soap bottle). Not enough to make it stutter, but the RPMs should drop as you do so. The concept is to burn off some of the deposits in the motor and valves as the water flashes to steam. The fuel treatment should help too.

Have you checked/cleaned the air cleaner/flame arrestor? that tends to be an overlooked item for us boaters. I put a K&N into mine and added about 200 RPM to the top end. I think this would be yours if interested... http://www.knfilters.com/search/product ... od=59-3264

meinmelb · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:02 am

LouC wrote:

I would take another compression test; with the engine warmed up and throttle wide open. Those readings are low, even in an older engine you should see over 100 psi and the lowest within 75% of the highest. My old '88 4.3 has 165-175 psi hot.

Thanks LouC. Engine was cold and had been standing for 3 weeks. I do not suspect a compression issue. I just wanted to test for consistency across all cylinders. Mercruiser manual suggests that a minimum compression of 100psi +/- 10% across al cylinders, & I assume that is when it is at operating temp and has oil lubricating the rings etc. SO to have 85-90psi across all cylinders when cold and after 3 weeks standing ( and not too much effort on my part to get it perfect) I reckon that's pretty good.

To Run the motor I have to pull the boat out the garage and into the rain and hail (big storms this weekend) and a high temp today of 9C (48F)... Not Fun! if I have to I will pull it out and warm it up and do a compression and a leak down test properly on all cylinders. I don't think that will be necessary.

I wonder if the combination of old fuel, the spark plug gap too wide, and the prop 1/2 inch diameter wider than Four Winns spec will combine to give it that little extra Spice that I expected??

meinmelb · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:15 am

Walt wrote:

I also don't see what size boat you have, or anything about WOT speed/RPM. Your fuel consumption isn't too bad. I average 7gph with a 6.2L.

150 is about what I would expect for compression. Before you run the next test, run the motor at about 1000-1500 RPM and spray small amounts of water into the intake (I use an old soap bottle). Not enough to make it stutter, but the RPMs should drop as you do so. The concept is to burn off some of the deposits in the motor and valves as the water flashes to steam. The fuel treatment should help too.

Have you checked/cleaned the air cleaner/flame arrestor? that tends to be an overlooked item for us boaters. I put a K&N into mine and added about 200 RPM to the top end. I think this would be yours if interested... http://www.knfilters.com/search/product ... od=59-3264

Thanks Walt.

I should have made it clearer in the heading that it was a 190 horizon but I assumed my signature might give it away

Also in the first post I said:
Tested on water. WOT = 4100, speed about 42mph. 2 people. Four Winns published figures: WOT 4400-4800, 50mph
So not a major problem but enough for me to feel like it needs more...

Yes the flame arrestor has been cleaned and yes I have read your post on the K&N filter - seriously considering this as well.. as soon as I am satisfied that I am getting at least close to the factory output spec. No offence but kinda like putting a performance filter on a car that needs a good tune up, so I am making sure I have that good tune... then on go the goodies....

Walt · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:13 pm

meinmelb wrote:

Thanks Walt.

I should have made it clearer in the heading that it was a 190 horizon but I assumed my signature might give it away

Also in the first post I said:
Tested on water. WOT = 4100, speed about 42mph. 2 people. Four Winns published figures: WOT 4400-4800, 50mph
So not a major problem but enough for me to feel like it needs more...

Yes the flame arrestor has been cleaned and yes I have read your post on the K&N filter - seriously considering this as well.. as soon as I am satisfied that I am getting at least close to the factory output spec. No offence but kinda like putting a performance filter on a car that needs a good tune up, so I am making sure I have that good tune... then on go the goodies....

No, Thank YOU. My mistake as I didn't read the full post before commenting.

I like the path you are headed down. Do the basics first and see what that does. The K&N is pricy, but not gonna hurt anything either and could be a good present for next season. I would recommend a "warm" compression test too.. even if it's just with the engine turned over a few times with oil circulating. Your cold test is good data to compare for the future, so keep that handy!

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

deafwish · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:33 pm

Does your MPI have a knock sensor that could be loose/ faulty, that could be pulling timing?
Can you get access to a Scan Tool to see engine parameters on the water?

rpengr · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Your "dangerous handling" comment made my look up your other post here:
http://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12964&hilit=handling

While I have heard of a number of Early 2000's Horizons with porpoising that is fixed with trim tabs, I have never heard of another Four Winns owner with the handling problem you describe.

meinmelb wrote:

When cornering at about quarter throttle or higher it has a tendency to want to roll over. I was doing a little messing around getting the feel of the boat at what I consider very safe speeds (20 to 30 mph), and on one hard turn the hull rolled over and took a significant amount of water over the inside rail. :shock:

If it were not for the windscreen we might have taken enough water to sink the boat. Took about 10 minutes for the bilge pump to pump all the water out that we could not bail out with a bucket. Then went back and rescued the jump seat that washed over board.

We had 2 adults on the boat, myself driving and my mate in the passenger seat, with 2 x 8 yrs old kids in the bow so weight is not an issue. It does it either side and if you turn harder than about 1/3 of the steering wheel at above 20 mph it leans over..... way more than you expect. Hold it for a second longer and it rolls over and drops the side of the boat under water. Imagine cruising at 40mph and taking evasive action from an object in the water....

I am wondering if some portion of your hull is saturated with water, or some other problem, such as fiberglass delaminated from the foam core or a bad repair after an accident? Is there some place you can have the boat on trailer weighed to see if it weighs the proper amount?

I assure you that I can steer my Horizon all the way to the stops at full throttle without any bad handling from the boat, and without the top of gunwals being even close to the water. It actually corners flatter than any of my previous boats.

Maybe you don't have an engine problem after all?

deafwish · **Posted:** Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:28 pm

My H180 Horizon also handled dangerously during turns, when the Stingray was fitted - but a plausible point you've raised.

meinmelb · **Posted:** Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:28 pm

Took the boat out this weekend to shake down after some of the work done on it. Had a great morning - Cold but fun. Had to scrape the ice off the windshield in the driveway and was 8 degrees when we arrived (46F) but heated up to a nice 15C (59F) by lunch. Lake is heated by the local Power Station to about 20C (68F)
We all had a ski with my 12yo daughter getting up first time on her new Radar P6... she was sooo excited!

So wanted to provide feedback after a good day on the water....
Hydrofoil removed.
Handling is better and not as dangerous, and is now acceptable in most conditions. Still possible to induce water over the side but have to really haul the steering over, this is followed by the prop blowing out so the hull rights its self when there is no drive. Compared to the Sea-ray 205 my mate has, my Four Winns seems to ride the chop better but is a looooooong way behind in terms of sure-footed handling, hull response and general stability. You could chuck the keys of the Sea-Ray to anyone and know that they would be safe baring hitting anything. I would say the FW190 hull would roll over if the driver turned too hard at speed.

Prop:
Ran the new High Five 19P prop. Hole shot is ok but only about 0.5 seconds quicker 0-30mph than my previous Sea-Ray 180 with a 3lt 4 cylinder which ran a 17P high five and weighed 200 kgs less. Also about 2 seconds slower than the Sea Ray 205 with the same motor (also 19P high five).
My Prop still blows out easily on tight corners - very strange....
WOT 41mph with rpm bouncing off the rev limiter. It seems to bog down a little when the throttle is hammered flat from Idle, then slowly builds up a head of steam, then hits the limiter quite quickly once over 4000rpm (205 has similar figures but just gets there quicker)

I use an app on my phone to test prop slip, HP and G-force 0-20/30/40 etc and it compares previous runs made in other boats (Understandably my previous Master craft takes just on half the time 0-30mph). Plugs new, plug leads new, air filter new, fresh fuel high octane added after fuel system clean. Injectors removed and cleaned ( professionally), fuel pressure good, Spark good, exhaust flappers intact. Compression not tested again. Will be taking it to my trusted marine mechanic to give it a once over and plug it in for diagnostic's before summer hits.

So for now the boat is worth keeping, considering the space inside it's perfect for the family but storage is limited. The ski locker does not fit a slalom ski ( even a 63inch ski) and only one wake board. The bow seats provide storage for a few small things but wetsuits and life jackets have to remain on deck.

I also note the fuel consumption is very good...... Tank was filled after and I reckon we used about 15lt for the day... WTF.. My Mastercraft would use about double... and at $1.60 per liter (about US$6 per gallon) I am very happy with that!!

Verdict... for the money it is a reasonable package. Major (hull stability) and minor flaws (storage) aside it is a nice family boat that you can ski and wake board behind, cruise the bay, handle the chop, and do it cheaply with reasonable fuel consumption. Would I recommend it to a friend?.. I'd say save up and buy a newer design...

deafwish · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:04 am

Did you check the engine's timing?
p.s. The last time we were at Hazelwood, the max temp was 37C at the hottest part!

Bayboater · **Joined:** Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:43 am **Posts:** 146

Hey Mark,
I'm surprised that the High 5 prop made little difference. Made a huge difference on mine......obviously a different boat.
The lack of power also surprises me. We had the 4.3 MPI in a Raeline 186C and it jumped out of the water so quickly. I would imagine that the Raeline would be similar weight to your boat.
Maybe its partially the fact that you are used to the power of the Mastercraft??

Cheers, Craig

ric · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:19 pm

My 190hp 4.3GL in my old 2009 Stingray 195CS was doing 61mph on the GPS, but it was a speed hull.

My current 4200lb tank with a 220hp 5.0 does 47mph on the GPS. It's a beast of a boat. Massive for a 21ft.

An H190 with a 4.3 should be doing around 50mph.

Time to do a compression test, check cam timing, re-do ignition timing. There's a serious problem with the engine.

www.iFourWinns.com

Looking for the loss - fine tuning the 190 for more....

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