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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Location: Eastern Canada
Meant to add - that the "X" dim is on the templates on the bottom of the list; but note the text - it can vary slightly by the intended speed or design of the transom :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:55 pm 
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All Night Long
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Location: Lake Washington, Seattle, WA
So...

Probably isn't the hull design. There are a bunch of those boats out there. They come out of a mold - kind of hard for them to screw that up.

Chalk to to

1) It's Merc issue with the drive

2) There is an issue with how the drive is mounted.


Seems that any decent dealer would be able to verify that the drive installation is per spec. Four Winns would have that data pretty easily.


I would just very politely ask the dealer to verify that... pull the drive and check the measurements against what Four Winns has spec'd.

Too many unknowns still to be able to identify the issue...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:02 am 
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Quote:
but it sounds more like a defective drive from Merc rather than directly attributed to Four Winns


That is not a characteristic of a defective drive......It's a characteristic of a defective installation or an incorrect trim limit or setting.....And Mercury did not install that engine and drive.

There's specific installation instructions and they're not Rocket Surgery.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Install/gas/86017211.pdf

Four Winns should fix it.


Regards,


Rick

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1987 Four Winns Liberator 211, formerly OMC 460 King Kobra powered, replaced in 2006 by a 1997 Mercruiser 454/Bravo III


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:10 am 
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life to the full

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:13 pm
Posts: 699
Location: Adelaide South Australia
I'm no expert but
1) what prop are you using?- Can make a big difference
2) Is there any deformity on the underside of your boat ?- Manufacturing fault
I hope that you can sort your problem out , I certainly don't think lack of experience even enters into it. ergo the problem must be with the boat and hopefully will get sorted out. After all boating is meant to be fun
hope this helps

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:39 am 
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All Night Long
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Location: Lake Washington, Seattle, WA
ht32bsx115 wrote:
Quote:
but it sounds more like a defective drive from Merc rather than directly attributed to Four Winns


That is not a characteristic of a defective drive......It's a characteristic of a defective installation or an incorrect trim limit or setting.....And Mercury did not install that engine and drive.

There's specific installation instructions and they're not Rocket Surgery.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Install/gas/86017211.pdf

Four Winns should fix it.


It can't be that tough to have the dealer verify that it was installed correctly..... is it?


Regards,


Rick

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:37 pm 
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GIDDY UP

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:08 pm
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Location: Tulsa, OK
I've noticed more cavitation on the Horizon than my other boats. Only at RPMs higher than 4K & turning to nearly the lock.


My trim MUST BE all the way down to avoid extreme cavitation problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:11 pm 
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Guppy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:00 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Milton, Wisconsin
I guess I might have to join the club for now. That does not make it right. I am just at or under 3K, and it does the same thing, but I am not turning lock to lock, but it is aggressive turning. That is what you do for kids who want to tube. I will get to the bottom of this, somehow. Thanks for letting me know I am not the only one out there experiencing this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
It can't be that tough to have the dealer verify that it was installed correctly..... is it?


I think that was your question......you embedded in my last post I think.... :?:


No it shouldn't be that hard but the dealer did not install the drive. Four Winns did. For the the dealer to do the work (and get paid) FW would have to authorize the work. I'm willing to bet that they would want to have one of their factory reps either authorize or supervise in person.

The owner shouldn't have to foot the bill on something like that.


Now having said that, I am also willing to bet that it's a trim limit problem (if the "X" dimension is correct or within limits)

Someone may have put the wrong trim "IN"-limit blocks in the trim cyls or maybe they're there and should be removed......which would cause the drive to NOT be able to be trimmed all the way down.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Villiage Idiot

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm
Posts: 1405
Location: Kansas City
My first season on mine, I noticed cavitation on "less aggressive" turning and RPMs. After a while, the prop hub (insert) gave out. Apparently it was "slipping" until it came apart all together. Have you checked the internals of the hub? It turns out mine had the wrong one installed at the dealer. Just slightly different, but was resolved easily enough once we figured it out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:36 pm 
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wkearney99

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:50 pm
Posts: 2444
Location: Boat in Annapolis, live in Bethesda, MD
Mike Roberts wrote:
Now for an issue I am ready to take FourWinns to court over!
...and am ready to legally make them...


Just some advice to others, unless you're already taking legal action, it's not a terribly wise tactic to make such statements. All it does it guarantee the other party immediately stop talking to you. They can only reasonably assume legal action is pending and will defer any and all conversations regarding it to legal counsel. It would be legally unwise for them to do otherwise. Blustering threats about lawyers, courts and lawsuits do more harm than good.

Often times your best bet is to send registered mail (or fedex) requiring a signature to someone in charge of customer service. All the phone calls and e-mail in the world won't really have anywhere near the same impact as actual correspondence that required a signature. That and you gain proof of acceptance of the letter (not it's contents, of course).

As to your situation, how about finding someone else in your area that has the same boat and taking some measurements? At least get a baseline comparison between how your boat is set up and another one without the same issues. Even better, get that new friend to take you out for a run. It may be that your expectations of performance may not be what that boat can provide. But without some more concrete comparisons it's just a guess.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:00 pm 
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Maybe there is some mechanical issue going on here. I have noticed at WOT and while turning at or near the hard stop I get some cavitation. But I normally don't force the boat into that anyway as a rule. I haven't noticed any cavitation around 3-3.5k while towing tubes etc and we do that every week. Otherwise the kids would say "boring'.

Sometime this weekend I will try hard turns at various rpm's to see what happens.................


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:35 am 
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You might not have anything "wrong" with it......


I don't think any boat manufacturer recommends WOT full left or right turns. I could be wrong. I never try to do aggressive high speed turns. (my boat will go nearly 60 at WOT)

Besides being a little scary at that speed, it's REALLY hard on the transom to make hard turns at high speed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Guppy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:00 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Milton, Wisconsin
I don't go with WOT with kids tubing behind me. I get ventilation at just about any planing speed when I make turns left or right, and then go back to straight. AS the boat ventilates, the RPMs wind up, as if I had given it WOT, thus boat speed drops like a rock.

I am a very safe boater, and when kids want to go in and out of the wake on a tube, I simply start them on a pendulum, slowly increasing the cut in the turn, until they just get outside the wake on both sides. I then wait to get a signal form them that they want a little more, and I increase until the rideir like the ride. I ALWAYS only go as fast as the person who wants the slowest on the tube wants wants to go.

It is not logical, or realistic to have a boat such as this, and not anticipate it is going to be used, just as I am using it, like millions of other boaters do every day. My WOT, with a few on board, half a tank of fuel, trimmed out properly is 50 tops. When I am towing kids on tubes, depending on their age, my speed is between 22 & 28 MPH (GPS confirmed speed), until the dreaded ventilation happens. If it is really small kids, it is usually just about idle speed.

As far as the strain on the transom goes, that is the least of my concerns. Although not happy with my FourWinns boat at the moment, there are only four boat manufactureres that make their boats robust enough for me to consider buying, and FourWinns was one of them. I am a mechanical engineer, and I understand the stress put on all aspects of a boat when it is moving in the way a run-about, bowrider, or ski boat (pick your category name, they all pull people on towables). Never-the-less, if any manufacturer did not build some "liability insurance" into their boat when it is designed, litigations would be unbelievable, and put the out of business before they could build their 500th boat.

Since I am simply trying to use my boat, in the way it was intended to be used (there are even pictures of kids tubing behind one in the brochure...), in the same way I have boated for years, there is obviously something wrong with the boat. I accept this, what I cannot and will not accept is a dealer unwilling, and a manufacturer not standing behind their product. It should not matter what I paid for it, but we all know boats aren't cheap, so this should perform as advertised. I simply am looking for the answer since the marina (dealer) and manufacturer can't or won't. I am going on vacation this weekend, with an aftermarket anti-cavitation plate that I will put on after 1 day of boating without it. I will then put it on, and see the difference from one day to the next. Same boat, same water, same or similar conditions. I am betting/praying this fixes it, although a customer should not have to go through this for 2 years to get his boat to perfrom right. All I can say is shame on you once, shame on me twice, well there will not be a second time with this dealer on manufacturer at this point.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:39 pm 
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I don't see an answer to the question about whether the boat did this when you had your sea trial. What is the story there?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:54 pm 
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230 Mike
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Is there another dealer you can take this up with? Believe me, I'm not here to defend FW, but put yourself in their shoes for a moment, and try to imagine the number of truly ridiculous "issues" and complaints they get from owners every day who think they know what they're talking about. I'm not saying you don't, I'm just saying it can help a LOT when a good dealer calls FW and says, "Yeah, this guy's right - the boat does have a serious problem and we need to figure out why." Trust me, it makes a difference.

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