Why you should not use E-15 in your engine.....

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:41 am

Borchik wrote:

Long Island has been dealing with this for years as LouC has said, and I used to live down there and work on a fishing boat as well as went to college down there, they were using it before much of the country, so I got to see some of the effects before many people did. The midwest has now been using E15 for years and I know several mechanics that have told me about all the issues when it first started being used. Now that everyone has replaced all their fuel lines, carbs, pumps, gas tanks, etc to newer stuff that is not so affected by ethanol mixtures they have significantly fewer issues.

That's just it. If you're rocking a 20+ year old fuel system in your boat it's time to be replaced anyways. That's why this whole E10/E15 argument is a waste of effort. Replace the worn out antique parts on your boat for modern ones and all problems are solved. It's called maintenance.

LouC · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:40 pm

I don't think too many people are going to put an aftermarket EFI system in an older boat, even though it has decided advantages. So that leaves us with carbs, we don't know if the gaskets and floats in rebuild kits are really designed for ethanol (I would suspect not) and then that leads you to new replacements like an Edelbrock Marine carb. If they are designed to be ethanol tolerant, then that might be a good solution. Something worth looking at.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:03 pm

Rule of thumb, if your boat is 80's or newer it's e10 safe and so are the replacement parts. OMC/VP uses Holley carbs. They are always E10 safe.

I love it how people say.. E10 broke my boat. In reality: Old age broke their crusty boat, which had original 1985 rotted fuel lines, unrebuilt 1985 carb, and a fuel pump that saw more air then fuel in it's lifetime from sitting. Has nothing to do with the fuel. E10 doesn't break parts. It would take 20 years of running E10 to start seeing it's effects on non E10 parts. It's not acid. A good beer has the same alcohol percent as E10.

230 Mike · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:43 pm

Alright then. We all know how you feel about ethanol, and you know how most of us feel. You aren't going to change our minds and we DAMNED sure aren't going to change yours (on that subject or any other). How about we just leave it at that.

ric · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:18 pm

230 Mike wrote:

Alright then. We all know how you feel about ethanol, and you know how most of us feel. You aren't going to change our minds and we DAMNED sure aren't going to change yours (on that subject or any other). How about we just leave it at that.

Well the difference is I use science to form my conclusion about E10. I know that Holley uses viton seals and gaskets that are ethanol safe (in 100% concentrations). I know the plastic my fuel tank is made of is 100% non reactive to ethanol in 100% concentrations. The 3ft of rubber fuel line is ethanol safe, and being 12 years old it's already 2 years past it's recommended lifespan and should be replaced anyways. The mechanical fuel pump on my 3.0 is 100% ethanol safe since it is made from viton. Ethanol is not acid, it doesn't eat away the aluminum in my cylinder head after it passes out the carb. Aluminum forms a coating called aluminum oxide on it's surface, which is non reactive to ethanol. The brass jets in my carb are 100% non reactive to ethanol.

If in some way shape or form that I don't use my boat for a few months, it's parked in the driveway never moving it, and I start it while it's phase separated and sucks up 100% ethanol you know what will happen? Nothing. If the engine does run, it will be 30% lean and run like poop until gas is sucked in and it will run good again.

Well, if you trailer your boat, just the act of driving it to the boat ramp will remix the separated gasoline/ethanol in the same fashion it's mixed in the gas truck in route to the gas station. You might have some water in it, but that's your fault for leaving gas sit in a boat for months.

So please, please enlighten me how E10 will magically break stuff. We have science, we know facts. So outside the world of science, and beyond the facts.. what sort of mystical damage will this stuff do that can't be explained? Volvo Penta tells me it's safe to run. Holley who made my fuel system says it's safe to run. The mechanical engineering that went into the design of my engine says it's safe to run. So where in the HECK do people come up with conclusions that ignore the OEM, OEM parts makers, and just pure science to get the nerve to tell the public and start rumors that "it will break my engine".

If I want to run E15, or even E85 there's SCIENCE that tells me how to do it. Quite simple actually, but not as simple as putting a round peg in a round hole. You actually have to use a screw driver. You want to know what's really funny? The conversion parts to make a holley carburetor flow enough fuel to run E85... are made from aluminum!

Want to know what I find even funnier then that? People brag about how robust marine engines are. People make claims how Volvo Penta and Mercruiser hand pick chevrolet engine blocks and how they're more robust then their automotive counter parts and how to NEVER use an automotive engine in a boat because it's weaker BUT when it comes to ethanol fuels, automotive engines all of a sudden are FAR SUPERIOR and these super strong marine engines all of a sudden shatter like glass at the mere smell of it. Boat people make me laugh.

230 Mike · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:56 am

You have science. The rest of the world has experience. The two don't agree 100%. I'll take experience every day of the week, but that's one of the differences between my generation and yours.

What do you want to hear? You've made up your mind about everything there is about boating - ethanol is just one example. You aren't the least bit interested in seeing anyone else's point of view or considering that their way of boating is very different from yours - but just as legitimate. You don't boat every night? You shouldn't own a boat. You don't spend every weekend working on your boat? You shouldn't own a boat. Your ridiculous statements go on and on. But at the end of the day, nobody's mind is changed, especially yours. Your opinion on the subject is a matter of record and there's no point in continuing to argue it with every post that comes along.

ric wrote:

Boat people make me laugh.

Well, we have a number of them here, so maybe you should head on over to the car forums.

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:04 am

I think ric is missing the point. The government mandated alternative fuel, ethanol, is not needed because the US is sitting on one of the largest oil reserves on earth. Moreover, ethanol cost more to develop than regular gas (look at what happened to E10 prices when the subsidies were taken away) and the use of corn to develop this alternative fuel has increased the cost of food prices, especially meat. As for ethanol being environmentally friendly, that is a farce due to how it is developed and it's poor performance. I am all for an alternative fuel if it is truly an alternative but ethanol is no substitue for regular gas due to all of the above (not to mention what it does to engines that are not run on a constant basis). Typical government madated program that makes no sense.

Cap'n Morgan · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:06 am

ric · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:34 am

I don't care about the politics. Politics won't make my engine run this weekend.

Every E10 "failure" can be 100% blamed on poor maintenance that would happen even if E10 wasn't run. Every person in here that claims E10 broke their stuff.. ironically are using fuel injected engines that are 100% designed to run E10. All of us with carb'd engines that could possibly have an issue, don't. Funny huh? Why is that? The answer is simple and it's already been explained by many people in here:

99.9% of boat owners do NOT want to work on their boat. They purchased pleasure crafts, not work crafts. Fuel injected boats are much more complicated and require much more upkeep. Their tolerances are much higher then carburated boats. You can't just let it sit around for weeks, months and expect it to work perfectly. Sorry. Boats require much more maintenance then the car you drive every day. Imagine if airplane pilots had that same mindset. Would you fly in an airplane that sat for months, and take off using the 3 month old gas without ever checking the oil levels or anything else?

The arguments in this thread how E10 magically breaks engines is why marine mechanics are in business. People don't take care of their expensive toys because they feel they don't need to, blame everyone else but themselves when it breaks. I'm sure other stuff in you guy's garages have the same issue like lawn mowers, etc. They just never seem to start or want to run? haha.

Did you guys know that the first engines ever made ran 100% straight ethanol? That most other countries in the world run E15 to E25 for the last 20-30 years? That's why nobody in the Government cares to listen to these 'claims' of damage. It's human nature to blame new and unexplained things.

What are some other myths? Oh here's a good one. High octane gas 'cleans' out an engine. hahaha. what?

298VISTA2000 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:09 am

ric wrote:

Every E10 "failure" can be 100% blamed on poor maintenance that would happen even if E10 wasn't run.

LOL. Quit spreading the government propaganda ric. You consider poor maintenance to be someone who neglects to add costly fuel additives to increase the shelf life of this piss water and to replace carburetors and fuel lines in which none of this would have to be done if our worthless government didn't mandate this ineffective alternative fuel. Why should the average consumer take these costly steps just to appease our tree-hugging, towel-headed loving socialist government officials? My answer is to quit burning that crap in my boat engines and once I get a choice at the regular gas stations, I will do the same for my car.

ric · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:19 am

298VISTA2000 wrote:

ric wrote:

Every E10 "failure" can be 100% blamed on poor maintenance that would happen even if E10 wasn't run.

LOL. Quit spreading the government propaganda ric. You consider poor maintenance to be someone who neglects to add costly fuel additives to increase the shelf life of this piss water and to replace carburetors and fuel lines in which none of this would have to be done if our worthless government didn't mandate this ineffective alternative fuel. Why should the average consumer take these costly steps just to appease our tree-hugging, towel-headed loving socialist government officials? My answer is to quit burning that crap in my boat engines and once I get a choice at the regular gas stations, I will do the same for my car.

Government propaganda? You're crazy. It is recommended by every company that makes fuel lines and every manufacturer in their maintenance books to replace rubber fuel lines every 5-10 years using non-ethanol marine gas or not.

Call up Holley. Ask them what happens to a carburetor that's left sitting for a few months with gas in it, even non-ethanol marine. The fuel evaporates leaving a varnish film on parts. It clogs up the little holes and glues the moving parts together like the floats. No government propaganda here buddy, I'm not even talking about ethanol gas. I'm talking about the destructive power of letting stuff sit and not listening to the maintenance schedules.

boater · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:35 am

It doesn't matter where the oil comes from. The price is the price.
I don't see how ethanol is a generational argument.
Who has documented proof of damage from ethanol?

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802 ... -surprised

aguyindallas · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:39 am

Guys, this thread has gone on long enough. Both sides have made valid points and it's turning into an argument more than a helpful thread, including some harsh words.

A member of the forum asked me to lock it. While I really don't want to do that, it may come down to it.

Can we perhaps to agree to disagree on this and move on?

fiznuka · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:28 pm

Cap'n Morgan wrote:

now that's funny

Paul I. · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:46 pm

Just an FYI

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

I found this in one of my new boating magazines.

www.iFourWinns.com

Why you should not use E-15 in your engine.....

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