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 Post subject: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Dolphin

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:37 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Sweden, Northern Europe, close to the arctic circle
Hi

I'm kinda toying with the idea of a 8.1L engine in my '06 258. Anyone done it? What were the gains vs the 5.7 320hp?

The reasons are
1) I have the money, rest of the boat fits us fine
2) greater cruising speed range, economy 25-30 mph with lower consumption than today or "fast cruise 35 mph plus" with I guess similar consumption as today. At the moment its a kinda limited spread. We do a lot of fast cruise transportation.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:10 pm
Posts: 2032
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
I'm not a big believer in the "Bigger engine uses less gas" theory (Myth).

Here why:
Lets say it takes 175 horsepower to push your boat at 25mph. Both size engines are going to consume almost exactly the same fuel to produce 175 horsepower.

However, the smaller engine will be more inefficient when near the top of it's power range (275-320 hp) because it is dumping in extra gas to make it there. The bigger engine should use less gas at those power settings, but of course will use even more at it's high power settings.

The larger engine will also use more gas while idling, but that's usually not much of a concern.

That being said, if you have the money and you like the fast cruise, then go for it. It should be good for resale value also. Just don't expect to use less gas.

_________________
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"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 5667
Location: Austin, TX
Before I bought my Chaparral I almost purchased a 1998 258 Vista that was repowered with a 8.1gi dual prop.

IT WAS f***ing AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Power for days!!!!!!!! I really wish I bought it, but at the time I had nowhere to put it.

Easy math. Look at the 2005 268 Vista.
8.1 = 30mph 12gph
5.7 = 31mph 14gph

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:03 am
Posts: 2238
Location: Winthrop, Ma.
I would save the $$ and go with another boat. You must be talking about 15 to 20 k to do this.

I had a 2006 V258, the wiring in the boat was nothing but trouble. They don't use marine wire when the built it.


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Location: Austin, TX
Paul I. wrote:
I would save the $$ and go with another boat. You must be talking about 15 to 20 k to do this.

I had a 2006 V258, the wiring in the boat was nothing but trouble. They don't use marine wire when the built it.


Well, considering you can buy a 268 Vista with an 8.1, genset, AC... I would just sell your 258 and buy a 268 already ready to go. On average they're going for around 40k.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 2108
Location: Chester, UK
Paul I. wrote:
I would save the $$ and go with another boat. You must be talking about 15 to 20 k to do this.

I had a 2006 V258, the wiring in the boat was nothing but trouble..


They perfected the problems with 2009 boats. Nothing to do with untinned wire ! Bizarre wiring problems.


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Posts: 5667
Location: Austin, TX
Graham R wrote:
Paul I. wrote:
I would save the $$ and go with another boat. You must be talking about 15 to 20 k to do this.

I had a 2006 V258, the wiring in the boat was nothing but trouble..


They perfected the problems with 2009 boats. Nothing to do with untinned wire ! Bizarre wiring problems.


After 2009 did Four Winns actually start using watertight automotive connectors and common ground blocks?

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 2108
Location: Chester, UK
ric wrote:
Graham R wrote:
Paul I. wrote:
I would save the $$ and go with another boat. You must be talking about 15 to 20 k to do this.

I had a 2006 V258, the wiring in the boat was nothing but trouble..


They perfected the problems with 2009 boats. Nothing to do with untinned wire ! Bizarre wiring problems.


After 2009 did Four Winns actually start using watertight automotive connectors and common ground blocks?


Oh yes, the connectors are now very good indeed, all waterproof. It's the unseen, unrecorded connections and bizarre connections that let them down,


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:03 am 
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Dolphin

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:37 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Sweden, Northern Europe, close to the arctic circle
I live in a part of the world where supply is thin...not much to chose from!

Going volvo to volvo, gxi to gxi...I dont expect a lot of wiring changes?

I expect economy cruise rpms to be at least 500 rpms less i.e should be more frugal? At the moment I'm getting just shy of 2mpg and not reaching top speed, so the current motor is "tired" at 450 engine hours. 8.1's pop up second hand fairly often as people convert to diesel.

Will the DP-S drive work?


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:04 am
Posts: 219
Location: Melbourne Australia
Haddock_ wrote:
I live in a part of the world where supply is thin...not much to chose from!

Going volvo to volvo, gxi to gxi...I dont expect a lot of wiring changes?

I expect economy cruise rpms to be at least 500 rpms less i.e should be more frugal? At the moment I'm getting just shy of 2mpg and not reaching top speed, so the current motor is "tired" at 450 engine hours. 8.1's pop up second hand fairly often as people convert to diesel.

Will the DP-S drive work?


I would not considder 450 hours "tired". Those 5.7 blocks are the same as used in the waterski / wakeboats and run to about 2000 hours before being considered for replacement. Our last club boat used the 5.7 and ran nearly 3000 hours before we sold it to a member and it is still running.

Perhaps salt water might damage other components but I doubt it makes any difference to long term performance inside the motor if maintained properly.

Personally there is no such thing as too much power..... In fact too much power is just about enough....! So upgrade and post a photo of your grin at WOT!!

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Cheers

Mark
Melbourne
Australia

Boats:
Current: 2004 FW 190
2001 Mastercraft X5
1998 Malibu Response
1999 Sea Ray 180
17 ft Scimitar Barefoot (200hp Yamaha)
16ft Scimitar Ski (Yamaha 115)
1988 Ski Nautique ( Called Ski Antique)


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:56 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Southern ohio
If you have money to blow have at it, but you can't call it fuel economy. Let's say you get it done for 10k. I think that's a pretty low number but I don't know how much work you are able to do. 10k divided by 2 gal per hr savings on fuel at 5 bucks a gallon. So you save 10 bucks per hr you run the boat. It has 450 on it now so when your boat hits 1450 hrs, you will break even. How long did it take you to put 450 hrs in it? If you want the fuel economy add fuel monitor like bliss has. Install auto trim tabs to always run at efficient levels. Probably could upgrade the flame arrester. There may even be a chip out there, I haven't looked. I just don't view my vista as a go fast boat. Good luck and if you do it post some photos. If you decide to do it, go out and record some concrete data how the boat does before and after the swap

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2001 Four Winns Vista 248 by rick2752, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:19 am 
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Dolphin

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:37 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Sweden, Northern Europe, close to the arctic circle
Thanks for the encouragement!

I have a fuel metering monitor, at 25 knots cruise boat consumes 60l/nm give or take a little depending on waves and how any we are, fluids on board etc. Because of the meter, I constantly work the tabs and trim to optimise as I see it as a bit of fun to be as frugal as possible.

I havent found any solid mechanics I trust who will give me honest advice if the motor is going or some kind of issue making it perform less than optimal, as the tired, disengaged (!) advice I get is to do a head/valve job which in cost is nearly the same as the hours to pull engine and replace with new (like for like)...

Anyway, just tossing the idea around and just wanted your thoughts :)


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:10 pm
Posts: 2032
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Haddock_ wrote:
Going volvo to volvo, gxi to gxi...I dont expect a lot of wiring changes?

The wiring should be much the same.

I think they are referring to wiring problems in the rest of the boat to be a common issue with some Vista's

Haddock_ wrote:
I expect economy cruise rpms to be at least 500 rpms less i.e should be more frugal? At the moment I'm getting just shy of 2mpg and not reaching top speed, so the current motor is "tired" at 450 engine hours. 8.1's pop up second hand fairly often as people convert to diesel.

Will the DP-S drive work?


You will have to be a least 500 rpm less to balance out the extra displacement...and therefore use the same amount of fuel... no savings.

People probably convert 8.1's to diesel often because they use so much fuel. Diesel is the only way to get better economy, but it takes a much higher purchase cost that most recreational users would probably never get to the break even point.

DP-S drive should be fine with the 8.1

Haddock_ wrote:
I have a fuel metering monitor, at 25 knots cruise boat consumes 60l/nm give or take a little depending on waves and how any we are, fluids on board etc. Because of the meter, I constantly work the tabs and trim to optimise as I see it as a bit of fun to be as frugal as possible.

I havent found any solid mechanics I trust who will give me honest advice if the motor is going or some kind of issue making it perform less than optimal, as the tired, disengaged (!) advice I get is to do a head/valve job which in cost is nearly the same as the hours to pull engine and replace with new (like for like)...

Anyway, just tossing the idea around and just wanted your thoughts :)


I can't make any sense of the 60l/nm number. Wouldn't that be about 0.07mpg?

I agree with the others that 450 hours should not be tired at all, normally. 2000-3000 hours should be achievable. However, there are some circumstances where valve damage can occur when an engine is "overpropped" (too much pitch, not achieving high enough wide open throttle RPM). So your mechanics may be right to suggest head rebuilds. Search "Tulliped Valves" for more information about this.

Ray

_________________
Image
"Knot Easy" 2000 Horizon 240 Volvo 5.7GS /SX
tow: 2017 Honda PILOT EXL-AWD
prev. boats:
'87 Chaparral 198CXL 4.3 OMC Cobra
'69 Jetstar 16ft Ski Boat, 115hp Yamaha
'68 Aluminum Jon Boat, 3hp Sears
'64 Water Wings


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:11 am 
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Dolphin

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:37 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Sweden, Northern Europe, close to the arctic circle
Thanks - will research head issues

The 60l/nautical mile was a typo, I meant 60l per hour, which is like 16 gal per hour if my maths is correct... I believe that is on the high side for 27-28mph cruise indicating "something" isnt fully right. At the seasons end I will empty gray and fresh water tanks and all the other extras and see what it does "unloaded".


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 Post subject: Re: 258 with big block?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 5667
Location: Austin, TX
450 hours?? It's still brand new. I wouldn't consider a chevy small block "tired" until you're past the 3000hr mark.

Your lack of performance is most likely due to water absorption in the hull.

_________________
1981 Columbia 8.7
2015 Yamaha FZR - 87mph - sold
2006 Yamaha GP1300R - sold
2003 Chaparral 215 SSI - sold
2009 Stingray 195CS - sold
2000 Four Winns H180 - sold
1976 O'day Daysailer II - sold

Rick's Four Winns H180 Mods/Upgrade Thread


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